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Homegrown teams (II)

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From: rigno
This Post:
00
324689.36 in reply to 324689.1
Date: 10/4/2024 10:32:02 AM
Sea Urchins
III.13
Overall Posts Rated:
5454
Hi. How is your best player? I mean TSP/potential.

My superstar reach 142 TSP

This Post:
00
324689.37 in reply to 324689.36
Date: 10/4/2024 12:40:54 PM
NakamichiDragons
III.7
Overall Posts Rated:
20032003
Second Team:
Little Computer People
Hi. How is your best player? I mean TSP/potential.

My superstar reach 142 TSP

Prove it … 142 TSP???

founded in S3 IV.5 (34234) - returned in S28 IV.7 (34515)
From: Hadár

This Post:
11
324689.38 in reply to 324689.36
Date: 10/5/2024 3:54:42 AM
Svätý Jur Snakers
II.4
Overall Posts Rated:
329329

Now:

154/10
130/8
127/8

From: demars

This Post:
11
324689.39 in reply to 324689.38
Date: 10/5/2024 4:56:30 AM
Elan Demars
III.9
Overall Posts Rated:
166166
128 / 8
124 / 10
108 / 9
103 / 9
101 / 8

A very well-balanced team :)
(maybe too much !)

From: Pihija
This Post:
00
324689.40 in reply to 324689.39
Date: 10/5/2024 3:21:37 PM
KK Stihija
Prva Liga BiH
Overall Posts Rated:
133133
136/10
134/8
130/9
128/9
122/8

This Post:
00
324689.41 in reply to 324689.33
Date: 10/9/2024 12:38:34 PM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
6060

The swiss-chess-system or double-elimination (streetball mode) for tournaments has been suggested multiple times and found it’s way to the BBM.

So since the routine is already there, it should be possible to add it to PL … but I am just hoping for it, I do not have any other information.


Thanks for a response.
Personally I'm not especially familiar with swiss-chess-system or double elimination tournaments (especially how future fixtures are determined in swiss-chess-system), and after taking a quick look at both of those tournament structures/typical rules I'd find this typical Buzzerbeater round robin system (everyone plays against everyone, at least within their group, possibly once or more) to better suit homegrown league - especially as I'm not expecting we're going to have trouble with too many participating teams (as is the case in BBM). As I'm writing this, there are currently 3 of us interested in joining the league, so there's still plenty of room for all the rest... please feel free to join! :)
Also in terms of playoffs, I think single elimination tournament would be the way to go. There's a difference between single elimination tournament and, say, best of 7 series and I definitely prefer former.

However, if this BBHG league would be an official add-on to Buzzerbeater, then I'd be open also to these other formats that LA-flaterik123 mentioned (even though I still don't necessarily see the point of doing it that way - I guess one of the rare benefits in swiss-chess-system would be that you don't have to have certain amount of teams to start the league without bots, should there be a restriction in exact number of teams needed to start the league to begin with?).

From: Wagner

This Post:
11
324689.42 in reply to 324689.34
Date: 10/9/2024 1:08:41 PM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
6060
So I did a homegrown (absolutely 0 players from TL) back in the S20s. And there was a definite ceiling of D.II middle of the pack was as high as the team could achieve. Now, it might be *possible* to go farther now, with the decline of skills of players pushed back farther, and advancements to arena facilities since then (training court for FTs, gym for helping with those multi-position trainings one has to do as 100% home grown). But I do agree that there is a limitation to the possible success one can attain doing such a strategy.

It is very hard indeed, yet some of the teams have managed to do very well with being homegrown. For most managers it's not probably realistic to expect a massive success when becoming homegrown, but on the other hand it offers so much more when you do achieve some success. Success, however, isn't comparable to other teams in your league (you are very lucky if there is another HG team in your league, as there are not so many of us), and that's where this new Homegrown League would come handy - we all would compete within the same rules and restrictions (and not against teams that have been built by purchasing).
Those changes you mentioned certainly help - even though benefits of them are available to all but still they are so essential to HG teams.



I don’t know if they had planned to have a separate league just for teams that do this, and if they did, I cannot imagine how they would try and implement it since it’s so easy to break out of homegrown. But, if this was a thought they had- how would they fairly provide the equality to teams of this nature to where they could fairly compete for BBB as a homegrown team?


I'm not aware that anyone would've planned anything in terms of creating a separate (practically additional league, bit like a PL but without the need of being a supporter) league, and that's why I took an initiative on this. I Still haven't approached Buzzerbeater staff/owners about this though, but maybe if they read this and want to discuss things further they can of course participate the conversation here or send me a message.

If one or some teams participating would become non-homegrown during the season, I guess one of the ways to implement it would be so that your team would be thrown out of the league immediately if they lack homegrown status at any part during the season (and possibly bot would replace that "forfeited" team in the league?).

As for the comment about HG teams being able to compete fairly in BBB, I'm not sure I understood your point (sorry, I'm not a native speaker...). But if I understood right I guess that it would be way too much to ask from BB staff to consider that, and personally I wouldn't expect them to make any changes in homegrown teams' "ability to compete in a fair manner against other teams" - that's one of the reason's why I'd like to see BBHG league in action, because it would be "an isolated league" from all the other official leagues, and then there would be finally a possibility to determine the best homegrown teams in Buzzerbeater.

From: demars
This Post:
00
324689.43 in reply to 324689.42
Date: 10/9/2024 1:36:22 PM
Elan Demars
III.9
Overall Posts Rated:
166166
Swiss-System is very interesting, cos' best play versus best, weak against weak (after 3 games, not the first time !).

So the challenge is always here ;)

From: Wagner

This Post:
11
324689.44 in reply to 324689.35
Date: 10/9/2024 1:44:51 PM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
6060
If they were to put the effort into creating a league or tournament, they could make a rule that only players drafted by the team could play. They already have rules about timing of purchase for BBB/M, cup and playoffs that wouldn't be hard to extend to disallow purchased players from selection. So technically even non homegrown teams could compete if they had 5 eligible players which I think would still be in spirit of the idea.


This is one of the reasons why it's such a great idea to have a discussion - I had not even considered that. It could be a very interesting possibility if all teams could participate, but with their homegrown roster only (if that would be easy enough to implement code wise). Should BBHG league allow these kind of teams to participate... after just seeing this idea I personally wouldn't be able to make up my mind, but nevertheless it's an interesting take on it! There is a chance that it could make becoming homegrown and training your own players more popular if many teams would get to participate in such a competition in where they'd get to see the effects of their training against the opposition.


Whether it is worth it to create such a league is another question entirely. There is a very small fraction of users that are homegrown or even train their own drafted players. And training your own players sort of goes against the current U21 system which is very popular. So they'd conceivably be at odds.


True - however, whether or not something's worth of something is always up for discussion anyway. For me personally creation of such league would be the best thing that ever has happened to Buzzerbeater.
Plus, especially if league would be official, I think it would encourage more managers to become homegrown and make homegrown teams more tightly knit community so to speak. I mean for us, it's often fighting against the windmills as we are competing partly against the money (and not necessarily against the skill to train and play your players optimally) and it would be a well needed breath of fresh air to be able to compete in a level playing field agains fellow HG managers.

Your point about training to U21 teams is another interesting discussion, however, it shouldn't be the reason to not start this kind of homegrown league.
I find it somewhat contradictory how players are trained for U21 (vs. how they are usually recommended to be trained if you aim to train them for national team, or if you plan to train a player for your own teams' needs), as I don't think that would resemble well the real life - in real life you'd probably train the promising player relatively the same manner whether you'd train him for U21 or for NT.
Anyway, like you mentioned, some managers would find training with the "U21 training restrictions" in mind, some with "national team training restrictions" and some would just train players for themselves (and, please bear in mind that most still perfectly trainable/potential players are not good enough for U21 or NT anyway).
Personally I've done all of those types of training (U21, NT and for my team) and I don't see it contradicting with the idea of homegrown league in a major way - in order to participate, there's no requirement for you to train all or any of your players optimally (or even train them at all).


Another idea would be to implement ladders for specific things. Season of team creation, under 21 players only, homegrown, and let people use scrimmages to advance up these ladders. But that's a whole lot of effort for maybe marginal return. I think the owners are very focused on UI and code optimization right now.


That would be interesting possibility and in optimal world all of those would be available and all would decide to participate.
But more realistically I'd prefer a larger amount (than 3 currently!) of participating teams, so I'd say it'd be better to focus on promoting this BBHG league. :)

From: IKnowZip

This Post:
00
324689.45 in reply to 324689.11
Date: 11/11/2024 7:42:01 AM
Social Security Kings
IV.25
Overall Posts Rated:
5050
Second Team:
Medicare Kings
I’m in the process of converting to home grown but it’s a slow process if you still want to be competitive.

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