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Substitution

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22360.1
Date: 4/2/2008 3:07:31 AM
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In this game (2475356), I set the substitutions to "Strictly follow depth chart". I have set these three players as SF: (2540054), (846995) and (709956). Still this guy (3127392) played 5 Minutes in the SF position (he was the number 3 guy in the PG position).

Last edited by zimiwings at 4/2/2008 3:07:51 AM

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22360.2 in reply to 22360.1
Date: 4/2/2008 10:32:18 AM
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In this game (2475356), I set the substitutions to "Strictly follow depth chart". I have set these three players as SF: (2540054), (846995) and (709956). Still this guy (3127392) played 5 Minutes in the SF position (he was the number 3 guy in the PG position).


Did he play due to stamina issues, injuries, fouls?

NO ONE at this table ordered a rum & Coke
Charles: Penn has some good people
A CT? Really?
Any two will do
Any three for me
Any four will score
Any five are live
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22360.3 in reply to 22360.2
Date: 4/2/2008 3:56:43 PM
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the second SG was injured, so it seems. No one fouled out. But Number 3 was sitting on the bench (started as PG, with high stamina), during Play-Time of the non depth-chart guy. Sp from my point of view, the third nominal SF should have played.

Stamina should not be an issue with this substitution pattern (at least not insofar as substituting some player not in the depth chart).

Last edited by zimiwings at 4/2/2008 3:58:12 PM

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22360.4 in reply to 22360.3
Date: 4/2/2008 4:02:44 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
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the second SG was injured, so it seems. No one fouled out. But Number 3 was sitting on the bench (started as PG, with high stamina), during Play-Time of the non depth-chart guy. Sp from my point of view, the third nominal SF should have played.

Stamina should not be an issue with this substitution pattern (at least not insofar as substituting some player not in the depth chart).


I bolded the key point there. I'm guessing the guy who you didn't want to play got his minutes during garbage time. From my experience, starters are the absolute last option if you're leading in a blowout, even if they are listed as 2nd or 3rd in the depth chart at some other position. As you experienced, players listed as backups at other positions (and even players in the 12 but not on the depth chart at all) will be put in the game before anyone who started.

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22360.5 in reply to 22360.4
Date: 4/2/2008 4:04:29 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
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Good catch.

NO ONE at this table ordered a rum & Coke
Charles: Penn has some good people
A CT? Really?
Any two will do
Any three for me
Any four will score
Any five are live
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22360.6 in reply to 22360.4
Date: 4/2/2008 4:07:16 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
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Yes, I know that happens, but it definitely should not happen with this substitution setting. And when I look at the game more closely, I've had a 4th player as SF ((3206504), 7 Minutes), he was Number three at SG, so that's more than one quarter of garbage time?

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22360.7 in reply to 22360.6
Date: 4/2/2008 4:08:31 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
3737
Garbage time can start as early as 2-3 minutes left in the 3rd quarter, again in my experience.

Edit: And this exact same thing has happened to me before, and I pretty much always choose Strictly Follow. I don't like it as much as you... substitutions should "just work" a little more than they do, IMO.

Last edited by Mod-oeuftete at 4/2/2008 4:14:30 PM

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22360.8 in reply to 22360.7
Date: 4/2/2008 4:14:32 PM
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Yes, the game was a blowout, and I usually only play this setting for scrimmage games, when I want to make sure about the minutes for training. But I only noticed these "nonregular" substitutions after the change that took place after the All Star Weekend. Before that, my coach almost always chose from the depth chart, regardless of my setting.

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22360.9 in reply to 22360.8
Date: 4/2/2008 6:08:02 PM
1986 Celtics
IV.31
Overall Posts Rated:
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we haven't changed anything about the substitution logic except for at the end of the game with the new GE that was put in place at the end of the all star break.

The problem is quite a complicated one actually... i know on the surface it sounds straight forward, but implementing a coach which does the right thing regardless of what kind of messed up situation the lineup gets into is difficult. If someone thinks they have an idea, i'd be happy to listen to it and poke a hole in it ;)

From: Emilio
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22360.10 in reply to 22360.9
Date: 4/3/2008 6:01:04 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
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It doesn´t matter how much effort you put into improving the substitution engine, always there will be people who complaint because of particular non-sense decitions. But this is not far from reality... anyone watching a real basket game will often wonder why this or that guy was coming in at the end of the match.
Furthermore, I guess after some years of BB development it will come that the game engine will be able to manage real basket team substitutions...

;-)


Last edited by Emilio at 4/3/2008 6:02:31 AM

¡Me aburro! (Homer Simpson)
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22360.11 in reply to 22360.9
Date: 4/3/2008 4:24:18 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
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Well, I'm only having this issue since the new GE was put in place. If I put "strictly follow depth chart", then I expect, that the coach uses the depth chart, until not one of those players is availabel anymore, and screw the consequences. If that is not possible, then eliminate that option (since then I can't see any difference to the "strictly follow until 4th quarter" option)!

I realize that the problem (and hence the algorithm to calculate it) probably is quite tricky. Not knowing anything about your algorithms or logic, I can't give you any advice, though. But before the change, the coach rarely used a player not listed in the depth chart, regardless of the substitution option, or whether it was a blowout or not. Now he does it regularily (3 ot of my last 4 games). With this behaviour, it is quite tricky, to get meaningful training minutes.