BuzzerBeater Forums

I created this thread to give us the opportunity to discuss, hopefully along with the developers the current state of Game Shape (GS) in the game and the power of GS training.

Currently, I think that GS training is overpowered and makes the game extremely unbalanced.

Before moving to my arguments, I want to mention two things: A balanced game should ensure that most of the regular paths a player could follow leads to the goal. BB offers many solutions for a team's growth: For example, one can buy a bunch of skilled players while another one can train youngsters. Both solutions can make one's team more powerful and they both have pros and cons. One particular difference between those two ways is that the manager who's training cannot use GS training too often or his training will become very slow and ineffective.

The other thing I want to mention is that GS, as we all know, is very powerful: Basically, it's a multiplier for our players' skills. A player with 14 JS and 9 GS is way better than a player with 14 JS and 7 GS who's way better than a player with 14 JS and 5 GS. We all need to have it as high as possible in our players.

So, let's see an example to see why GS training is overpowered, talk about that and think about possible solutions:

Here are last week's (5th Sept - 11th Sept) minutes from a team of my league (Data from buzzer-manager.com - I'm sorry for the small fonts but BB forums are very restrictive regarding images):
(http://i.imgur.com/im7i6Eq.jpg)

As you can see, 4 players played 96 minutes, way too many for all we know, 1 player played 72 minutes, another 1 played 24 minutes and 3 scrubs didn't play at all. What would you think it should have happened? A seasoned BB manager would claim that at least 3 of 4 players that played 96 minutes should experience a GS drop. Did they?

Here are this week's GS from the same team. Sorted by salaries, you won't have any problem to see the changes:
(http://i.imgur.com/sKKxfcZ.jpg)

So, let's see... 3 out of 4 players that played 96 minutes POPPED in GS. The 86k guy is the only one that remained the same (well, a little less because he lost some DMI). No player dropped in GS! The 72 minutes guy went from 6 to 8 and only the guys that played from 0 to 24 minutes experienced drops.

I think we all can safely assume that this manager used GS training.

This is not the first time that I notice this happening. I've already written some things in various threads but this is the first time to see that in such an extent. One manager used his best players for 96 minutes in a week and the game says "it's ok as long as use train Game Shape".

One theory I have for this happening is that this season's changes mess GS up. BB devs announced that starting this season, high Stamina players can play more minutes than usual and not suffer GS drops. Also, they announced that GS training was toned down (we don't know by how much).

This leads me believing that a high Stamina player gets two advantages instead of one: He can play a lot of minutes and not suffer GS drops and plus when trained in GS, he can also enjoy the benefits! While the devs changed GS attitude for high Stamina players and didn't change the effect of GS training towards these players. I think this is the case here, of course I can't prove it because I don't know their skills.

Another example is my PG's minutes this season. They are not great, but I try to manage the using the 61-70 minutes "rule" we have for GS. So he has played: 61, 60, 66, 67, 95, 71, 48 (ASG week), 59, 64 minutes. He never reached 9 GS all season. I'm not using GS training at all.

All these make me claim that GS training is overpowered and makes the game extremely unbalanced. A manager who doesn't even care to manage his minutes gets a reward while others who don't use GS training but break their heads to figure out optimal minutes don't.

Possible solutions in next post.

Last edited by Villagkouras at 9/12/2014 10:42:41 AM

There are many possible ways to counter this effect and make BB more balanced. I seperate them in 3 categories, regarding which area of the game needs (or is decided) to be tweaked.

1. The Game Shape Training

a) The obvious solution is to tone down GS training a lot more. I don't know by how much, only the developers have the means to know that, but it should be enough to guarantee that a player who plays 96 minutes cannot pop in GS anymore.

b) Another solution (and the one I would pick if I was a dev) is to leave GS training as is, but limit the amount of times one can use it during the season. If someone knows he cannot spam GS training and use it 2-3 time per season, he will try to manage his players' minutes. This would make a strategic decision and possibly it would make some managers think of other types of training as an option, at last.

2. The Game Shape luck factor

One other possible solution is to minimize luck factor in GS. If I get 61-70 minutes for a player then this player has 95% chance to pop in GS (or stay the same as long as he already has 9) without having to train GS to achieve that. Do not announce us the range of minutes or the chances, but please ensure that being unlucky or lucky is not the number 1 factor for GS. GS is too important to be relied on luck by that much.

3. Outweighing the benefits

Another solution is to make GS training less preferable by making other types of training more attractive. Increase the effect of training, why not? A manager who decides to train should overcome a list of difficulties such as:

1. Not being able to train GS/Stamina/FT too often
2. Lose games because his players are not ready yet
3. Lose games because of out of position training
4. Lose money from losing games
5. Lose 48 minutes because of Game Engine bugs

I'm training for over an actual IRL year and my players are not even ready. In 14 months I only used my best squad just once (thank God there are Private Leagues)! I'll never train players again because I don't have such patience anymore. I'm really jealous of other managers who pick their best squads, train GS and defeat me all the time.

Anyway, there are possible solutions. I want this thread to become a serious discussion for this matter, because there is an issue and needs to be addressed. Using GS training vs. not using it is like picking a Mage in an MMO and then find out that Warriors are overpowered. This game needs to be balanced.

Using GS training vs. not using it is like picking a Mage in an MMO and then find out that Warriors are overpowered. This game needs to be balanced.

Very interesting everything you said and your last quote just made me smile.

One other possible solution is to minimize luck factor in GS.

Maybe the more irritating thing in BB.

Yeah, that is why I think if developers remove the GS training, it will make users improve their players, even training FT or stamina.

Here's another possible option - although it may be a bit more complicated

I'd make the gameshape training boost only last for that week. For example, let's say gameshape training boosts a player from respectable to strong gameshape. The following week, prior to the gameshape updating, that boost is deducted, then the new gameshape estimated.

What effect would this have?

This would still allow people to get a short term boost to their gameshape if they have a big game that week, which I think is really what the spirit of the GS training is about. However, gameshape training would not allow you to get away with continually overplaying players - your underlying gameshape would continue to deteriorate, and the short term boost GS training would provide would not cover that.

Just a thought.

On the options you have proposed:

1a and b are probably the most realistic options
2 is never going to happen, and I don't think would fix the issue you describe anyway of people overplaying players and training GS.
I'm not sure 3 would fix the problem either. If you make players easier to train, the market will be flooded with an increased quantity of higher quality players, and thus the price of such players would decrease. If anything, that option could almost help gameshape trainers, who would be able to buy better players for cheaper without training.

Last edited by mllama at 9/13/2014 2:28:58 AM

As I see it, you mean that GS training would seem like Crunch Time or something? Once you use it you have your benefits, but then it's gonna backfire? Seems interesting, can be discussed.

I like things simple: One can train GS 2-4 times per season. He can do it in consecutive weeks or whatever. And of course GS can't be the medicine to everything: After 96 minutes, even picking his one precious GS training can't solve his problems.

I wish a BB could come in here and at least comment my first post whether 3/4 players with 96 minutes played popping in GS is normal or not, whether it's a bug or it needs to be addressed.

I think the simplest and best solution to many of your concerns is to increase the rate of training pops. In my opinion, training is too slow and too expensive. Buying players on the transfer market and team training is an effective and fun strategy. Actually being able to put the best possible team out there and trying to win as much as possible is not a problem that needs to be fixed. The problem seems to be that it is very hard to train and and put a priority on winning at the same time.

Speeding up training is a simple thing to do, and it would make teams that train happy, and at the same time wouldn't upset teams that like to put the best possible team out there as much as they can.

Hello, I experimented on giving 100+ minutes to my players before, with massage doctor and game shape training and from experience, it is possible to pop in game shape for a few weeks. However, it is not sustainable as the players eventually drop to average-respectable. Note that this is before bonus game shape for high stamina players was implemented. Sorry but I did not keep a copy of the exact number of minutes and game shapes so I am just recalling from my memory.

They should remove the damn thing completely!

Make it dependent only to minutes management.