BuzzerBeater Forums

I played this game yesterday: http://www.buzzerbeater.com/match/97997733/boxscore.aspx

I'll try to ignore the overall result, I'd think I might win this sometimes if this was played again (seeing as we were level at half time, I had 20 more shots and shot horribly, maybe the FT disparity would be less next time, etc...)

I'm rewatching the live text now (I watched live yesterday as well) and it seems to me it's not working as reliably / as I'd expect.

Too often it seems my C (set as defending C) was defending a 3 point shot, and my SG (set to defend either PG or SG) was defending inside - though it's hard to be sure about this, too often the text doesn't actually tell you who the closest defender is. If they were actually put this way around for whatever reason their 11-18 from 3 might make some sense. If my SG was inside would they shoot 21-61 on 2 point shots? I don't know. Still possible given their IS rating.

For what it's worth: I had my 2 bigs as the inside 2, my two guards as the outside 2, and my trainee at SF (as I understood, he'd be the floater / man2man)
I can understand the SF (my trainee in this case, he has equal OD and ID so i'd be happy with that) slotting to the outside or inside, and the game engine / your coach choosing another player as the m2m / floating guy, but not my SG and C swapping. Suspect if they were set correctly my team OD rating for the game might be higher?

That's rambley. I suppose my main question is: Do you set the assignments / positions yourself or not? Happy for this to be a general discussion about the box defenses though and how best to use them, etc.

Last edited by Bergkamp at 7/16/2017 7:43:01 AM

The manual says about Outsidebox-and-one:
"The fifth defender focuses on the opponent's best outside scorer."

They shot poorly inside because of their tactics (run and gun, outside focus) and your zone (4 players, including 2 ordinary bigs) but mainly because of their rating "Inside Scoring awful (high)"

I don't know how the engine picks the "Best" defender, if it weights only OD for outside or OD+ID, and ID for Inside or a combo of ID/SB/OD and perhaps rebounding?

BUT your "box" did not work, since your C was guarding their PG/SG on a lot of shots.
Maybe because the "best" one was guarded by your best OD-defender and their "second best scorer" found a mismatch in your box against your C?
Problem 1: They didn't have just ONE scorer.
Problem 2: your insideplayers didn't have enough OD.

I have not played a lot of box-D:s BUT if I would, I would like my boxplayers pretty equal in OD and/or ID to prevent mis-matches.

I don't know how the engine picks the "Best" defender, if it weights only OD for outside or OD+ID, and ID for Inside or a combo of ID/SB/OD and perhaps rebounding?

I think its a combination of all defensive skills but I'd find it hard to believe that if you have a player with significantly higher OD he wouldn't be regarded as your best outside defender.

Your analysis of the box Ds seems sound to me though.

I don't know how the engine picks the "Best" defender, if it weights only OD for outside or OD+ID, and ID for Inside or a combo of ID/SB/OD and perhaps rebounding?

I think its a combination of all defensive skills but I'd find it hard to believe that if you have a player with significantly higher OD he wouldn't be regarded as your best outside defender.

Your analysis of the box Ds seems sound to me though.

The one thing I try to remember to point out is that if you read the description of the defense (At least in the official American English, though I haven't compared with proper English just yet) is that it always refers to the "fifth" defender, not the best defender:

Box-and-One defenses: Four players play in a zone defense protecting the basket while the fifth player plays a man-to-man defense guarding the best offensive player on the other team. This prevents him from scoring as much. There are two types of box-and-one defenses:

Inside Box-and-One: The fifth defender focuses on the opponent's best inside scorer. Normal pace.

Outside Box-and-One: The fifth defender focuses on the opponent's best outside scorer. Normal pace.

So at least according to the rules, the player being defended is specified as being the best inside/outside scorer, but nowhere is it stated that it's the best inside/outside/combined defender on him. My assumption based on a very small sample size from ages ago was that the man defender would be the best defender of that type among the three players not in that primary defensive role, to wit:

outside box and one: PG and SG are the top of the box, the best outside defender among the SF/PF/C is the man guy, the other two are the bottom of the box
inside box and one: PF/C at bottom of box, best ID among PG/SG/SF as the man guy, other two at the top of the box.

But that's just my wild guess and as likely to be wrong as right.

I think you may be right because also for me the mtm defense guy has never been the best defender (I played mostly inside box-1).

I can try that again when I have a scrimmage in the future, because on the main team I have quite a gap between the best defenders and the other players, so if they don't get picked that would almost assuredly confirm your guess.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 7/20/2017 4:35:13 AM

I think you may be right because also for me the mtm defense guy has never been the best defender (I played mostly inside box-1).

I can try that again when I have a scrimmage in the future, because on the main team I have quite a gap between the best defenders and the other players, so if they don't get picked that would almost assuredly confirm your guess.

That would be cool. I think if I were to put a little scouting into my PL and actually came up against a team where that sort of thing would make sense I could possibly replicate it, but probably not nearly as cleanly as it sounds like you could.

I like that theory above Hrudey, not sure it works though.
If we say my C Johns was the man defender in that game, he has 1 and 2 less OD than the other two of the SF-PF-C combo.

What he does have is the most combined OD/ID/SB of the 3 though, so maybe your theory adapted to that formula? (Can't be sure either way on the just OD/ID combination, as it's the same as one of the others)

I like that theory above Hrudey, not sure it works though.
If we say my C Johns was the man defender in that game, he has 1 and 2 less OD than the other two of the SF-PF-C combo.

What he does have is the most combined OD/ID/SB of the 3 though, so maybe your theory adapted to that formula? (Can't be sure either way on the just OD/ID combination, as it's the same as one of the others)

I could see it being OD/ID/SB. I could see being completely wrong too. How would he have compared with OD + SB only?

(edit: I just glanced through the PBP and it looksl ike he's guarding both Upis and Gustavsson quite frequently, so I'm not entirely certain he's the "and one" but I'm leaving the office shortly and will certainly forget to investigate further.)

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 7/20/2017 5:43:37 PM

If anyone like I can do a test with my team. I got two guards with decent OD and no ID or SB. And then I got three trainees with 12 OD and 13-15 ID/SB.

When my time in the Cup is over, my regular non-league lineup has an obvious best outside scorer, and he'll be intended to play 48, so I could probably be the person you run the test against. Just don't push that 'eject GM-hrudey from the Cup' button too soon, okay? ;)

(edit: And I'll have the helpful side effect of having pathetic offensive flow, too, so it should be easy to see who's guarding him, especially if I do a patient).

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 7/20/2017 5:50:05 PM

If anyone like I can do a test with my team. I got two guards with decent OD and no ID or SB. And then I got three trainees with 12 OD and 13-15 ID/SB.

Well, it seems that the engine's recent infatuation with trying to drive out any sanity I may have once had is still going strong, I'm available for a scrimmage next week if you're up for it. Hitchcock at PG is definitely going to be, by far, the best outside shooter on the court for me, although of course he'll still spend most of the game trying to pretend he's an inside player and throw up pointless drives and inside shots, missing unconstested jumpers, and then only once the game is out of reach will he shoot many threes (but if it gets close enough to matter, he'll go back to layup mode).

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 7/20/2017 9:50:13 PM