BuzzerBeater Forums

Bugs, bugs, bugs > Junior National Team Rankings

Junior National Team Rankings

Set priority
Show messages by
This Post:
00
82525.10 in reply to 82525.9
Date: 3/24/2009 5:51:32 AM
BC Hostivař
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
12061206
Second Team:
Jirkov
Sorry, for inconvenience, English is not my native language, so some words somebody could feel in another way than me (more sensitively).
But I think my message describe sittuation very exactly. I don't think BB-Forrest message sounds like yours:

remember everyone's here to help you, especially the BBs.

It sounds like:
There surely is not any bug in U21 rankings. And there is no need for me to look about it.

But finally I decided to correct my first message.

Last edited by rwystyrk at 3/24/2009 6:29:56 AM

This Post:
00
82525.11 in reply to 82525.8
Date: 3/24/2009 11:35:04 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
303303
It looks like you don't want to accept there should be an bug.


Or you don't want to accept that there is not one after multiple explanations.

NO ONE at this table ordered a rum & Coke
Charles: Penn has some good people
A CT? Really?
Any two will do
Any three for me
Any four will score
Any five are live
Message deleted
This Post:
00
82525.13 in reply to 82525.12
Date: 3/24/2009 1:23:54 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
303303
What is highly unlikely?

NO ONE at this table ordered a rum & Coke
Charles: Penn has some good people
A CT? Really?
Any two will do
Any three for me
Any four will score
Any five are live
This Post:
00
82525.14 in reply to 82525.13
Date: 3/24/2009 3:26:15 PM
1986 Celtics
IV.21
Overall Posts Rated:
88
everyone calm down...

i didnt write the ratings formula so i can't go look for a bug, as I dont know the fine details of how it works.. I will ask charles about it.

can I ask, stepping back from the quantitative aspect whether or not your relative world ranking is in line with what you think it should be.. not the rating number, but the rating position.. and likewise, do the other ratings make relative sense to one another? or is the bug in your mind that the quantitative number is off and you haven't thought or examined the rankings beyond that? if you feel the rankings are off qualitatively can you get a specific example of a team that dropped many spots, or rose many spots in a way counter to what you would expect from their recent results?

I am asking this specifically to assist in tracing back the behavior of the algorithm to see whether the results match with the way it was designed, not to be a pain in the butt.

Last edited by BB-Forrest at 3/24/2009 3:27:31 PM

This Post:
00
82525.15 in reply to 82525.14
Date: 3/25/2009 8:49:14 AM
BC Hostivař
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
12061206
Second Team:
Jirkov
My relative world ranking (or better european ranking) is ok, but there was quite big differences between our U21 (Ceska Rep. U21) and the team up and bottom of us at the end of previous season.
But the relative rankings of others team is hard to say because in my mind the quantitative number is off.

What data do you store in the database? Is it possibble for example to find points which every team gains for every particular match (or every particular week - sometimes there is more than 1 match in a week)? I my opinion this should help us a lot in loooking for the reason.
I think almost all U21 teams have strange points last two ranking updates.
For example
Chile U21 (win against Rep. Dominicana U21 118:89)
Malaysia U21 (win against India U21 114:93)
Bulgaria U21 (lost to Andorra U21 125:126)
Hong Kong U21 (win against Hanguk U21 104:78)
Uruguay U21 (win against Costa Rica U21 114:59)
Nigeria U21 (win against Tounes U21 93:74)
has -15 pts last update. It looks like they lost 15 old points and gain 0 new points (maybe Bulgaria is near to correct points, but the others not).



This Post:
00
82525.16 in reply to 82525.15
Date: 3/25/2009 8:55:15 AM
1986 Celtics
IV.21
Overall Posts Rated:
88
this is where i have to get charles involved because your approach to figuring out whether something went wrong makes a lot of assumptions about how the algorithm works that I'm not sure are true... i'm not sure they aren't true either... but it might not be as simple as ... look at the last game they played... add/subtract some points based upon some analysis of that game.

This Post:
00
82525.17 in reply to 82525.16
Date: 3/25/2009 9:11:26 AM
BC Hostivař
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
12061206
Second Team:
Jirkov
I thinks it works something like this (maybe I'm not right):
1) There are some inputs (stored in database - like teams, position and points in rankings before match, match data)
2) There is some algorithm
3) There are outputs - points for a single match or single week and cumulative points for last 28 weeks (some of this I supposed to be stored in database)

My idea is to look over the outputs stored in database, this could shows whether there is a real problem. (For this first step we don't need to know algorithm).
And if it shows there is real problem than we need to now algorithm to search for bug in it. Or maybe there is "only" problem with input data (but for this case we also need to now algorithm).

This Post:
00
82525.18 in reply to 82525.17
Date: 3/25/2009 4:49:27 PM
1986 Celtics
IV.21
Overall Posts Rated:
88
but the concept of "points for a single match" might have no meaning in the contest of the algorithm. If its makes some complicated comparison of relative win/loss records and strength of schedule it becomes a very complicated question how a single game contributes to the ranking.. certainly an straight additive effect is not predetermined. again, i dont know how it works, i didnt write it, but if i did write it I could imagine doing it in a way that wouldn't allow for the contribution of a single game to be analyzed in the way you suggest (looking at the isolated quantitative change of the ranking variable outside of the context of all the other rating variables).

This Post:
00
82525.19 in reply to 82525.18
Date: 3/25/2009 4:58:05 PM
BC Hostivař
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
12061206
Second Team:
Jirkov
Ok, we will wait for Charles. He is probably the only person who can help us.

But I'm quite sure you think the algorithm is more complicated than it really is. I'm quite sure there is something like points for single match. There is not recalculation of whole last 28 weeks every week.

From the rules:
The world championships aren't the only way that national teams can compete for status. For every national team game that gets played, some number of ranking points get distributed between the participants. Even scrimmages are worth something, but the bigger the game, the more points get handed out. All ranking points that national teams receive, they keep for 28 weeks (i.e., two seasons). Points expire on a rolling basis.

And all my NT and U21 Rankings analysis showed it really works this way.

Last edited by rwystyrk at 3/25/2009 5:02:42 PM

This Post:
00
82525.20 in reply to 82525.19
Date: 3/25/2009 5:52:37 PM
1986 Celtics
IV.21
Overall Posts Rated:
88
but might there not be some renormalization that happens right before the enthusiasm reset every season for instance?

Advertisement