BuzzerBeater Forums

im very aware of this thing(i guess most of the users are). we had some discussions in croatian forums also,but since there are no viable changes in sight i guess its time to keep mouth shut and keep playing or just quit the game and add a bit to that shrinkage :P

I think your misstake is that you assume that only LI-teams want passing and OD on bigs. Actually when you are going to build an outside team and you are aware that you are going with an offense that is disadvantaged by the engine, you will want as much defense and flow as you can get on ALL positions. LI-teams can do without that easier, because, like Robard said, they will just overpower their opponent with their pure offensive force.

It does seem odd to advertise this in advance as a way to stop LI dominance, when I think it would be clear to anyone that an outside offence requires outside skills on big men. I think what we'll see, as with other changes in the past that didn't quite work as intended, is that the BBs will stop saying it was to stop LI dominace and was just brought in to make people pay for secondaries on all players.

we had some discussions in croatian forums also,but since there are no viable changes in sight

They have solutions if they want to. Make training a bit faster across the board would help for example (i.e. today nobody can cap 10 players of decent to good potential before they start declining).

Using common sense on Free Agency would have helped too. Marin went from relatively loose FA policy when the users went from 50k to 20k (so a lot of FA hit the TL keeping the prices very low), to a very tight FA policy when the users stabilised (which happened at the same time Utopia was launched sending prices through the roof).

@Foto: I think everyone agrees that the IS-salary raise for Guards is good. I think your misstake is that you assume that only LI-teams want passing and OD on bigs. Actually when you are going to build an outside team and you are aware that you are going with an offense that is disadvantaged by the engine, you will want as much defense and flow as you can get on ALL positions. LI-teams can do without that easier, because, like Robard said, they will just overpower their opponent with their pure offensive force.

It seems rather interesting that the proud and lively defenders of the BBs and GMs, Manon and Teemo, are a no show in this thread so far. They built or tried to build outside oriented teams SB heavy to compete against LI teams. It would be interesting to see whether they side with Robard or Foto on this one.

I think your misstake is that you assume that only LI-teams want passing and OD on bigs. Actually when you are going to build an outside team and you are aware that you are going with an offense that is disadvantaged by the engine, you will want as much defense and flow as you can get on ALL positions. LI-teams can do without that easier

I could agree with this if any player would play in the position asigned by the game.
But to play inside a team can use this players as PG, SG, SF, PF and even C (depending on the division)

Jump Shot: wondrous Jump Range: inept
Outside Def.: marvelous Handling: phenomenal
Driving: legendary Passing: sensational
Inside Shot: phenomenal Inside Def.: tremendous
Rebounding: marvelous Shot Blocking: awful
Stamina: inept Free Throw: prolific

Jump Shot: prodigious Jump Range: average
Outside Def.: phenomenal Handling: phenomenal
Driving: phenomenal Passing: prolific
Inside Shot: colossal Inside Def.: marvelous
Rebounding: sensational Shot Blocking: inept
Stamina: inept Free Throw: inept

Jump Shot: marvelous Jump Range: strong
Outside Def.: marvelous Handling: wondrous
Driving: stupendous Passing: strong
Inside Shot: prodigious Inside Def.: prodigious
Rebounding: proficient Shot Blocking: strong
Stamina: proficient Free Throw: awful

They are all PFs. In which positions would you put them if you want to play outside? Only as PFs or Cs and maybe SFs
Since a LI team can set a lineup without a single guard, just adding salaries to them won't be enough.

1/ Guards with IS have a significant increase in salary (5-10%). Not cool for LI teams.

Wrong. The only thing that has been claimed by Foto (his own admission), is that a moderate increase increase has been implemented for very very high levels of IS. Chaperon style high levels.

I proved that the most accurate salary simulation available projected Chaperon at 5k more salary than he has now. That is an incontrovertible fact, to which Foto answer is: Josef Ka and everyone else's formulas are incorrect.

So the facts are:
1) Chaperon has a salary 5k lower than Buzzer-Manager
2) Chaperon has 20 IS in the SF formula before and after the salary change

You and Foto claim his salary went up 5%-10% without any kind of evidence or inside knowledge, be it Buzzer-manager, Marin or anything else. According to Foto Chaperon would have had less than 50k salary in the previous formula, which implies that:
1) IS impact for him is like +12%
2) Buzzer-manager salary formulas, the most accurate formula available and contrary to any available evidence, are off by approximately 20%

2/ OD is more expensive on PF / C now. A logical consequence would be that people train less this skill now, helping outside oriented PF/C to score. We will see if this happens in the future. Possibly cool for outside teams

The problem has been clarified multiple times but you (and Foto) seem to be just ignoring the main point made by our German friends. The disparity between LI and outside tactics is not a skill issue, it's an overall payroll issue. The problem is that LI teams can afford more costly big men because LI guards are cheaper.

It has been said ad nauseam, but I'll repeat it for you since it seems it doesn't get through: the increase in secondaries hits everyone the same way, inside and outside oriented teams alike. However because there are only 4 inside skills most big men are effective both in inside and outside tactics, with the caveat that outside oriented big men actually require high secondaries, while LI not necessarily (although it's a nice to have, like the icing on the cake of superior primaries). Until you erase the disparity in salary for players used as guards nothing will change, the LI teams can still afford more expensive big men and outside teams will still need big men with top notch secondaries (they can't afford). And I must say the answers Foto gave do not show he has an answer to this either.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/9/2016 6:31:37 PM

You have misunderstood me twice

Foto (his own admission), is that a moderate increase increase has been implemented for very very high levels of IS. Chaperon level high levels.

No, I've said that it's more visible and higher with higher levels

I proved that the most accurate salary simulation available projected Chaperon at 5k more salary than he has now. That is an incontrovertible fact, to which Foto answer is: Joey Ka and everyone else's formulas are incorrect.

And here you are wrong again. It's not an incortrovertible fact, it's BuzzerManager against Marin. BuzzerManager says Chaperon's salary would be around 60k, Marin says Chaperon's salary would be far below 50k. And there is a difference between both, you can't put Chaperon's sublevels in BM, on the contrary, Marin can simulate it.

And here I have a doubt, why do you believe my first point (even when you have misunderstood me) and don't believe the second one? Or I have access to the source who has the information and both statements are true or I don't have it and both are false.


Last edited by Foto at 12/9/2016 4:43:50 PM

And here you are wrong again.

I'm not wrong, this is an English forum and I would expect you to understand English. It's an incontrovertible fact that the most accurate salary estimate we have projected Chaperon 5k more than his actual updated salary based on his skillset. This is the fact. Anyone can check buzzer-manager and check his skillset which I'm happy to provide for everyone's benefit.

And there is a difference between both, you can't put Chaperon's sublevels in BM, on the contrary, Marin can simulate it.

Buzzer-manager was higher by 4k. I assume the coefficient used are calculated through a regression analysis, therefore the salary can be overestimated by 2%-4%. You on the other hand are effectively claiming that Buzzer-Manager can be off 15% or more (60k+ estimate vs sub 50k actual salary which you claimed would have been under old formulas).

And here I have a doubt, why do you believe my first point (even when you have misunderstood me) and don't believe the second one? Or I have access to the source who has the information and both statements are true or I don't have it and both are false.

I don't believe your first point either obviously. I did let it go as the discussion was getting more interesting thanks to Robard and Falke. So, unless Marin comes out and says what he's done, I will not believe that there has been any significant change how Chaperon 20 IS impacts his salary. Buzzer-manager is not off by 15%+ unless someone can prove otherwise, because in the past it has always been extremely close to actual values. For Buzzer-Manager to be off by 6-7% on a 20 IS SF the IS change appears to be negligible.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/9/2016 5:14:41 PM