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(how) Do the box +1 defences work?

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From: GM-hrudey

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288522.11 in reply to 288522.9
Date: 7/20/2017 9:49:43 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
If anyone like I can do a test with my team. I got two guards with decent OD and no ID or SB. And then I got three trainees with 12 OD and 13-15 ID/SB.


Well, it seems that the engine's recent infatuation with trying to drive out any sanity I may have once had is still going strong, I'm available for a scrimmage next week if you're up for it. Hitchcock at PG is definitely going to be, by far, the best outside shooter on the court for me, although of course he'll still spend most of the game trying to pretend he's an inside player and throw up pointless drives and inside shots, missing unconstested jumpers, and then only once the game is out of reach will he shoot many threes (but if it gets close enough to matter, he'll go back to layup mode).

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 7/20/2017 9:50:13 PM

This Post:
00
288522.13 in reply to 288522.12
Date: 7/21/2017 4:35:46 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
My best inside defender has 47 OD+ID+SB. My SF has 38 but obviously more OD. My best OD guard has 30 but very low SB.

Next inside defender has 30, next forward has 32 (but significantly less OD). Second OD guard has 33 and higher SB than the top one.

That's as clear cut as it gets for the inside guy, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone with a higher OD/ID/SB/RB count and that includes Hayek who has also much lower IS to boot. So if I play box-1 and he doesn't defend most of the inside shots then we can safely assume that it works in some other way.

It would also be interesting to see who among the guards would be the mtm guy. My top guard is a much more polished offensive player (the other is a trainee), but they have similar ID so the real difference are the extra points on OD on one side and the significant higher SB on the other. I think I will check in the scrimmages at the end of the season.

This Post:
00
288522.14 in reply to 288522.13
Date: 7/21/2017 9:38:06 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
My best inside defender has 47 OD+ID+SB. My SF has 38 but obviously more OD. My best OD guard has 30 but very low SB.

Next inside defender has 30, next forward has 32 (but significantly less OD). Second OD guard has 33 and higher SB than the top one.

That's as clear cut as it gets for the inside guy, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone with a higher OD/ID/SB/RB count and that includes Hayek who has also much lower IS to boot. So if I play box-1 and he doesn't defend most of the inside shots then we can safely assume that it works in some other way.

It would also be interesting to see who among the guards would be the mtm guy. My top guard is a much more polished offensive player (the other is a trainee), but they have similar ID so the real difference are the extra points on OD on one side and the significant higher SB on the other. I think I will check in the scrimmages at the end of the season.


Well, had I known that Manon wasn't going to be able to test this in a friendly, I would have asked him to push the eject button on your Cup run when he pushed the one to end mine.

I'm going to turn back on my autofriendly for now, but if you (or anyone else) wants to run an outside box and one test, let me know and I'll turn that back off and we'll arrange a friendly.

This Post:
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288522.15 in reply to 288522.14
Date: 7/21/2017 11:17:00 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
Still in the cup for now, but I will definitely be able to at the end of the season. It's not hard to guess that the guy with 47 is (31801722) and that I will kind of need him to play in the league unless I go into tanking mode. So it will be at the end of the season. I might even get supporter towards the end and arrange a scrimmage between my 2 teams (I usually use come playoffs time in order to adjust minutes as I like, but I can also use it for this).


From: _wella_
This Post:
11
288522.16 in reply to 288522.4
Date: 7/21/2017 4:43:31 PM
Vattjom Vatos
SBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
258258
Second Team:
Utopia Vatos
Box-and-One defenses: Four players play in a zone defense protecting the basket while the fifth player plays a man-to-man defense guarding the best offensive player on the other team. This prevents him from scoring as much. There are two types of box-and-one defenses:
Inside Box-and-One: The fifth defender focuses on the opponent's best inside scorer. Normal pace.
Outside Box-and-One: The fifth defender focuses on the opponent's best outside scorer. Normal pace.

Could it be, that the "fifth defender" in Inside Box-and-One is the C and the "fifth defender" in Outside Box-and-One is the PG?
It could also (not likely!) mean that the PG (the others positions are selected to the four man inside box) defends the best scorer, both in Inside Box-and-One and Outside Box-and-One, since the PG(or rather the position) is the fifth defender(position wise) when calculating the zone?

It's not a crystal clear explanation in the manual!

I sincerely thought the Outside Box-and-One one was a four-player outside zone and the C, i was thinking "Outside box" + "and one" to begin with. :-) No wonder it didn't work the way I thought it would! ;-)

But when I read the rules again (and again) I assume, that in ANY of the Box-and-One defenses you need both OD and ID (and SB and RB[more in Outside Box-and-One] as well) since the four man zone will defend against both outside AND inside players and grab rebounds!

This Post:
00
288522.17 in reply to 288522.16
Date: 7/21/2017 6:48:24 PM
Greensboro Generals
IV.9
Overall Posts Rated:
746746
Perhaps the best way to get the matchups desired is to blank the assignments. I also think it is a gimmick defense that in terms of being used for an entire game is only effective against someone who is a one trick pony.


A great example of this is very early in Dean Smith's career Carolina went to Kentucky and the Cats had a great scorer named Cotton Nash and the Heels ran a box in one on that guy and by games end he was resigned to just sitting in the corner watching the other players basically playing 4 on 4 as Dean pulled off his first great upset.

This Post:
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288522.18 in reply to 288522.17
Date: 7/22/2017 11:47:00 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
It doesn't work like that in this game. If you blank the defensive assignments the game will determine that for you, but once it's decided it sticks. If the other team is playing patient the GE won't assign your best defender to guard the best scorer, but it will assign him to guard the position where he defends best (so it's unlikely it will select a guard to defend a forward...)

This Post:
00
288522.19 in reply to 288522.18
Date: 7/22/2017 7:37:22 PM
Greensboro Generals
IV.9
Overall Posts Rated:
746746
Again, a gimmick D. Sounds like either way it is a bit of a crap shoot as to if the right guy will go Claudio Gentile on the best scorer Plus if your opponent decides to Jan you up by going patient and stacking his best shooter at C then your boned.

This Post:
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288522.20 in reply to 288522.19
Date: 7/22/2017 7:54:04 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
It happens also with other offenses. One guy often takes a lot of shots and you need to guess where the guy is going to play. Emptying the defensive assignments will not help you putting your best defender on the best offensive player (irrespective of where he plays) as far as I know.

I used patient as an example, because the issue is magnified there.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 7/22/2017 7:54:29 PM

This Post:
88
288522.21 in reply to 288522.20
Date: 7/23/2017 11:31:48 AM
white snake
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
73087308
Second Team:
Black Forest Boars
I took a look at my Box+1 thread in my federation. At the beginning of 2015 I ran an analysis on the two Boxes. If you can wait and are interessted, I will post an english summary of the results during the next week.

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