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can i get other opinions on this point.. i cant stress enough how much this would help localize the bug.

two caveats... if player B were a backup normally would he get any time? and is he getting no time now?

this result is confusing to me because you are saying that this a) only happens when B is starting instead of A... so it only happens when you try to start a worse player

so perhaps the coach is overrulling you as to who should start... but then you are saying it is as if the depth chart was never even loaded correctly because you can't see ANY effect on Bs minutes.

see either the IO is broken and the coach is getting the wrong orders, or the coach is implementing the orders incorrectly.

the fact that this only happens when B is set to start would lead me to believe it is the coach implementing the orders incorrectly, on the other hand if you see no effect it makes me think the coach never got the orders in the first place. (that isnt to say you didnt submit the tactics, but somewhere along the data chain they got dropped).

The first observation could be because people always have the default lineup be their best players and then its these modifications that put their worse players first which are getting missed and then the coach gets the default orders instead.... anyway... please if people can look closely and see if what bruno says holds for them.

Yes, B normally would get time when he were a backup.
And no, he is getting time now.



Sorry for my english and I hope I have understood what you asked and answer what you asked.

Ok this is the case I've been looking at and testing.

Let's start with game (10313097)
Everyone got correct minutes higher played time listed as option 1 and scrap minutes as option 2. Slow paced offence used to neglate stamina issues. Only spot that was different was C spot where E.Ida started but was listed as option 2. Now you could think that there is a big quality difference between those 2 but PF spot had basically the same difference.

Next (10320731)
This game I thought i was smarter. PG,SG and C spot reserves were listed as option 3. Other spots as option 2. Slow paced offence used. Great was E.Ida was not started and played only 9 minutes notice the same guy at C spot as earlier game.

Finally (10337266)
Needed more minutes for one of my PF's and E.Ida. Only PG reserve was used as 3'rd option. All other spots were used as option 1 and option 2. R.Ameters and E.Ida were used as subs (option2). Normal paced offence was used. Surprise surprise E.Ida started the game and to my bigger surprise R.Ameters was not switched to starter although he was subbed in as fast as possible and as you can see played more time that the 1-st option. I you look at the jump ball of this game you can see that the other team also switches out one man at jump ball thats just wrong.

Conclusion: I think the coach is trying to win the game from the start as I always used Depth chart until 4-th and as you can prolly figure out that my defalt is not slow paced offence + I used normal to even show that he get's the part what tactic to play but just can't get over my lineup and tryes to correct it.

Huh too long I hope it helps gotta sleep now...

hi
in my match(10345820) the players of played have all benn messed up!!
the starters the backups and the reserves didn't follow my orders... and also the selcted\remainng players lists have been messed up:

what i choosed: (recalling it from the next match formation page):
Starters (PG->C )Krencius Staglicic Genovese Karalis Savorgnani
Backups: Krencius Staglicic Genovese Isturizaga Isturizaga
Reserves: Genovese Consoli Genovese Staglicic Staglicic
Subs: strictly follow
Fouls: let them play

Remaining Roster: Tondello Arfè Caralt Ortuzar Gordon

this is what was supposed to be. and here it is what happened instead:


Starters (PM->C )Krencius - Genovese - Staglicic - Isturizaga - Karalis
from the End game stats we got the subs:
backups: Krencius Savorgnani Consoli Tondello Ortuzar

Remaining Roster: Arfè Caralt Gordon
------------------------------
I setted the formation on 1\22 afternoon cet... and before I setted it on sat morning... could it be that in someway it messed up the two different orders I gave? (i barely remember the orders given on saturday, btw)
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after reading all above I suppose there isn't anything that can be done about it, is it?
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so I guess i'm changing my training orders to train something clever in this situation

I hope you can fix it, or at least i hope not to face it again... it could be very annoying......

I have played a PL game ((10349253), just to check this bug again.

On purpose, I have put a strange line-up to see what happens:


My orders:

R.A. as PG (he is actually PF, but he's not bad as PG) / F.G.H (a real SG as backup).
J.D. as SG (he is actually PF, but not bad as SG) / T.L. (my best SG player, as backup).
Q.F. as SF (he is actually C) / C.C. (a real SF as backup).
R.H.Z as PF (he is actually SF, not good as PF) / Y.B-G. (my best PF as backup).
TC as C (he is actually SG, not good as C) / V.K. (a real C as backup).

My settings: Depth chart until 4th / Patient / Man to man / Sit them.

The result:

Starters: R.A. / T.L. / Q.F. / R.H.Z. / T.C (so only T.L became starter...)

Minute distribution: after 1st, 3rd and 4th quarters.

---------
PG: 10/2 (1st) - 31/5 (3rd) - 39/9 (4th)
SG: 8/4 (1st) - 30/6 (3rd) - 38/10 (4th)
SF: 9/3 (1st) - 23/13 (3rd) - 31/17 (4th)
PF: 9/3 (1st) - 17/19 (3rd) - 24/24 (4th)
C: 6/6 (1st) - 19/17 (3rd) - 23/25 (4th)

Conclusions:

1) T.L. was set as backup but he played as starter.
He is probably my best player.
This is not the first time. In fact, in my case the bug has always appeared with him in similar situations: i.e. (6027427), and other more time that I don´t remember.

2) The last quarter I expected a complete change, so all the right players who were playing as backups would have played almost the whole quarter. But the minute distribution is far from this:

PG 8/4
SG 8/4
SF 8/4
PF 7/5
C 4/8 (only here the backup played more minutes than the starter, no foul trouble).

The match was close until the end, so no "trash minutes".

I hope this information can help to discover the bug. If you have a suggestion I can also try it in the next PL match.

Regards.




Last edited by Emilio at 1/23/2009 4:50:51 PM

so thanks this is helpful...

I do wonder whether or not if you had put TL as the starter and JD as the backup SG whether JD would have gotten more or less than 10 minutes?
My hunch is that he would have gotten less... meaning the coach did play him more often than he would have if he was put at starter in the depth chart... and if this is so, then i know where to look for a bug.... well it wouldnt be a bug exactly, it would just be that we need to rework our substitution algorithm because even if i fixed it so that TL STARTED on the court, our substitution algorithm might end up using him for a very similar number of minutes. This is really I think part of the general complaint that users have in which they don't fine control over their minutes, or that the options that they have don't give them the distribution of minutes they want over all ranges of skill differences.

I think JD as backup would have played less than 10 min, because usually TL plays more than 40 min even with a good backup.

However, if TL plays as backup with "follow strictly my orders", then he just play 10-15 minuts (depending on the particular match conditions).

I think people (and me) think that "dept chart until 4th" should work as "strictly follow my orders" for the first three quarters, and as "let coach decide" for the last quarter. This would give us a better control on the minutes, because for example in a cup match with a weak opponent, I could start with "bad players", and then in the last quarter, the "good ones" would get into the field to bring the match to our side.

If you are right (so TL would have played the same minutes even starting as backup), then the problem can be a bad understanding of this coach tactic (Depth Chart until 4th) by most of the BB users.

Anyway, this should fixed (IMO) because I cannot see the utility of this coach tactic if it is not working in the way I explained before... or maybe to explain better this tactic in the rules, describing what is the idea behind it.

Last edited by Emilio at 1/23/2009 6:28:25 PM

I have repeated the experiment, but this time T.L. was set as starter and J.D. as backup. The rest was all the same.

This time T.L. played the whole match... 48 min and J.D. did not play at the SG position (He played a few minutes as PF because he was set as reserve for this position and the starter was in trouble with the faults).

I can try other combination if it is helpful. I don´t care very much because I keep winning my matches even with such a strange line-up... ;-)

ok so i am going to say that the coach did seem to hear something between when TL starter as starter and when he started as backup... which means I know at least where the bug is now... and everything is working actually just as we designed, just the algorithm we chose has some unexpected consequences. The problem is the hack solution where we just make sure JD STARTS the game isn't really what you want if TL is gonna get most of the playing time.

Ok, I see. So if everything is almost running as intended, then there is a problem of a bad understanding of this tactic (by the users or even by the designers...), because I expected "depth chart until 4th" to make play JD most of the time the fist 3 quarters and TL the whole last quarter.

Most people I know are thinking the same in Spain. Even the current traslation of "depth chart until 4th" is something like "my orders until last quarters".

Rules say: "you can use your depth chart strictly until the 4th quarter, then tell the coach to try and win the game however he thinks is best (Depth Chart until 4th)". Is this still true?

Regards.

im saying the problem would still exist if you did strict depth chart.. because even in strict depth chart the coach considers the fitness/skill of the players some.. and the gap in skill between JD and TL is so large that the coach can't bear to put JD in over TL. We need to figure some other way to have the coach follow your orders.. we cant have him ignore skills because sometimes things happen that the DC can't account for... and he needs to make a tradeoff between players who are in the depth chart at multiple spots.. anyway...