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My question is, what level does a trainer need to be to develop an MVP player to him maximum salary? Level 6 are about 70k per week(the ones that aren't sold for high prices initially). I don't mind paying that, TV contract is close to 100k anyway.

You can easily cap an MVP with an atrocious (level 1) trainer. The question is, how many extra skills can you get. Each level in trainer will equal a bit less than one extra pop in his first two seasons, decreasing after at the same rate training slows. That's a tiny difference for the cost and you need to really know what you are doing to make up for it (most people don't).

70k per week over a season is about a million dollars. Basically if you went with a level 6 trainer you would be paying triple the worth of this player for just one or two extra pops.

A better thing to do with the money if you don't care about winning this season is buying a better second trainee and investing even more on arena (can't invest too much at this stage for you).

Whether or not you should invest in the draft totally depends on where you think you will be in draft order.

I think you ought to spend on scouting. Right now you would have the third pick in the draft, which means it's worth it to invest in the draft (to my mind).

But you want to spend your points wisely:

1) Do the "Scouting Combine" first. Once you know the age/height of every player, you can weed out players that aren't a good height for your training plans, as well as the 19yo's (if you're looking to build a U21/NT-type player). Then instead of trying to interview all 48 players, you can focus on getting information about the 4-10 players that fit your plans.

2) If you have 5+ players with 1-2 gray balls that you're interested in, you can do the "Group Demonstration."

3) Then only scout the 4-10 players you're interested in.

4) If you're still interested after scouting once, interview them.

Afterward, you'll have spent 30-40 scouting points which (if you buy them 2/week) is $150k-$200k. And you'll at least be able to sell your draftees for that much. And you have a good chance of getting someone you actually want to train, which will help sell tickets down the road.

I can think of maybe 20-25 teams in total that would ever want to spend for a level 6 trainer. Clearly you wouldn't have been one of them.

I like to get a point into scouting even when i'm not looking for a draftee short term. the 5k or 10k are roughly the same price point per point received. They also roll over, so you can save over two seasons and scout the third season with all of those points. Once you've got a good arena going, i think 1 or 2 points per week may have some value at a given point down the road.

you're country is on the small side in terms of users. The 2nd trainee doesn't have to be as good as your current guy, just find guys with similar holes from whichever country. Given that your current trainee will need help in PA, OnevOne, and ID, you should find a player who has similar problems, but has respectable talent in OD, and has mediocre-ish talent in HA, JS, and JR. As long as that potential is a 7 roughly, you'll have a good secondary guy down the road.

Last edited by FuriousSK at 1/12/2013 3:46:54 PM

I really don't think that it's simply a case of stating that a L5/6/7 is a "waste of money", nor asserting that someone is foolish for buying one. Because regardless of diminishing returns, it still remains a fact that a Level 5 trainer is better than a Level 4, and so on... stating the obvious I guess, but some people seem to be putting out a blanket statement that "more than a level 4 is not worth it". Not a fact.

The key here is: is it financially viable for your team?
For me, absolutely. I have a L6 trainer - have had for quite a while. For me, that's a reasonable cost. There are others in the JBBL who swear by L7. And if I could afford it, then I'd probably get one too.
For my trainees (my two key guys I am training for *my* team, not to sell), I want to get them to the point I envisage. For me: a L4 or even L5 trainer may well "not be worth it".

There is no spoon.

There are a handful of teams who need to make a guy as good as possible in the shortest amount of time. For those people, and that includes me as i have a level 5 myself, it is completely worth it to get that extra distance out of their development immediately so that they may be fully completed with training within 4.5 seasons instead of 5.33 seasons.

For any american D.V team to have one would be pretty foolish in my view. The chances that they will be capable of understanding development immediately, the chances that they will be able to follow W_alloy and promote up the divisions quickly is also extremely unlikely.

If you are new and don't know much about the game yet, then buying a trainer level 5 or great is foolish. If you completely understand training and require a better player faster and have the money to make it an intelligent move, then you know enough about the game for it to no longer be foolish. That would be my statement on the levels of training on their own.

I really don't think that it's simply a case of stating that a L5/6/7 is a "waste of money", nor asserting that someone is foolish for buying one. Because regardless of diminishing returns, it still remains a fact that a Level 5 trainer is better than a Level 4, and so on... stating the obvious I guess, but some people seem to be putting out a blanket statement that "more than a level 4 is not worth it". Not a fact.

There is enough data on the affects of higher level trainers that one can objectively state with a high degree of certainty whether or not a higher level trainer is worth it in a given situation. If analysis says it's close there is some wiggle room but in most cases the analysis does not say it is close.

The key here is: is it financially viable for your team?
For me, absolutely. I have a L6 trainer - have had for quite a while. For me, that's a reasonable cost. There are others in the JBBL who swear by L7. And if I could afford it, then I'd probably get one too.
For my trainees (my two key guys I am training for *my* team, not to sell), I want to get them to the point I envisage. For me: a L4 or even L5 trainer may well "not be worth it".

Firstly, I think you will agree that teams in top leagues have a very different set of circumstances than most teams looking for help on these boards, circumstances which are extremely important when picking out a trainer.

Secondly, how do you know that a level 6 trainer is worth it for you? One needs to perform analysis examining marginal cost and marginal benefit to be able to speak with any certainty on the matter. Analysis using dollar values still apply to trainees that are being kept because of opportunity cost, although some small adjustments may need to be made (merch bonus for home brews, transfer fees, etc). The exception is when a user has a strong subjective preference to just train their own player to be as good as possible regardless of cost, which many people seem to have. But such subjective preferences can be used to justify absolutely anything and thus fall outside the bounds of a strategy discussion.

Going from a level 5 to level 6 trainer costs maybe 30k/week? (rough estimate). So that's about 400k per season. The benefit is around 4%, which means one extra pop for every 25 you are getting. If you get 25 pops in a season, that means you are paying 400k per extra pop. Even if you were getting 50 pops in a season the average extra pop would have to be worth 200k to you for this to be a good deal. This would only be true if you were adding 10 million in value each season via training. 200k * 50 = 400k *25 = 10 million.

Last edited by w_alloy at 1/17/2013 4:36:12 PM

Basically the designers messed up when balancing trainers. Everyone just assumes that the balance is correct. I think the math and the training data shows extremely clearly that this is the case.

I find it kind of amazing that I haven't been able to convince more people of this given how bullet-proof the math is. If you disagree, tell me where I messed up.

Going from a level 5 to level 6 trainer costs maybe 30k/week? (rough estimate). So that's about 400k per season. The benefit is around 4%, which means one extra pop for every 25 you are getting. If you get 25 pops in a season, that means you are paying 400k per extra pop. Even if you were getting 50 pops in a season the average extra pop would have to be worth 200k to you for this to be a good deal. This would only be true if you were adding 10 million in value each season via training. 200k * 50 = 400k *25 = 10 million.

just going from here....

10 million in value each season... yes, probably not happening... Yes, you only get the 1 extra pop, but what about extra sublevel effects too that didn't quite pop?

Also, mostly everyone single position trains for the obvious reason of, it trains faster, no?
Have studies/research been done with the level 6 and level 7 trainers, vs the others in 2 position? or even 3 position training?

I mean, yeah it'd be an expensive research project etc for that... but what if, thats why they're knowning there and not changed much? What if having a lvl 7 trainer makes it worthwhile to do something "crazy" such as, SB training for sf/pf/c ?

Just a unfounded theory.

Last edited by LBJisaCancer at 1/17/2013 5:12:46 PM

First of all, I admire the amount of effort and the very nature of your mathematical analysis. It's to be commended and a tool that many can use to help them make decisions.

There is enough data on the affects of higher level trainers that one can objectively state with a high degree of certainty whether or not a higher level trainer is worth it in a given situation. If analysis says it's close there is some wiggle room but in most cases the analysis does not say it is close.

Except that's not what I said.
I stated that there is no hard and fast "rule" for each and every team. No blanket generalization that's true for everyone. I do agree that for the vast majority of teams starting in a low div, this may well be a universal truth.

Firstly, I think you will agree that teams in top leagues have a very different set of circumstances than most teams looking for help on these boards, circumstances which are extremely important when picking out a trainer.

Absolutely. Completely concur. However... what's true for a US user starting out in Div V, doesn't remain the aforementioned universal truth for every new player to the game. Smaller nations operate under a different set of conditions. Starting in Div II in a nation is a fairly different game of BB to starting out in Div V (and something I think the game messes up completely... but that's another story I guess).

Secondly, how do you know that a level 6 trainer is worth it for you?

Well... starting backwards (and speaking for my situation - or thereabouts) - my L6 trainer costs me 30k a week. I guess your math holds true there as I paid 500k for him - so rather than a L5 guy at 20-30k costing 100k, I paid more at the outset.
But to be competitive in the JBBL, I am going to need a very high quality player at the 3 and 4 slot. To buy a player of that ilk it's going to cost me north of 3million. Your math is excellent, and an excellent guide for those starting out as to figure out what they need... but often the pricing and availability of players at the top end doesn't follow the same logic (unfortunately). The market pays what the market will bear, and if the market is playing insanely high (and oft-feeling-inflated) prices for players, then that's what the market value is.
Or I could build them. In building them, I'm not creating a player for sale - and it becomes slightly harder to put a monetary value on them as I'm not really willing to test it out (tho' hazarding a guess I think my 22yo and 23yo trainees would both sell for the same "north of 3 million"). My 22yo made the HK U21 team, and my 23yo played on the Nippon U21 team, and is in his second season of the NT. And therein lies something crucial for the game element... for me (and I completely understand that the vast majority of users don't fall within those parameters. But some might).

Japan's a small nation. The BB number is "37 users". I expect that the truth is somewhat smaller... and if we're measuring truly active members, then it's probably closer to perhaps 20, maybe less. And those with the desire to build players that will help the NT? I'd guess fewer than 12.
For my version of "enjoying BuzzerBeater as a game" involves success for my nation, and I'm pretty keen on being a part of it. For a small nation to experience any variety of success, there have to be people willing to do 'a little more'. I'm not entirely sure that this can be quantified by an equation.

But such subjective preferences can be used to justify absolutely anything and thus fall outside the bounds of a strategy discussion.

That comes across as so summarily dismissive, and I'm sure that's not your intent - you've been so helpful to many.

Last edited by malice at 1/17/2013 7:56:35 PM