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Gongrats to the champion for an amazing achievement!

@Koperboy,

i understand your view point, but if it takes 19/13 outside shooters, on top of everything else, for LI to beat a well structured 2-3 defense, then that's the biggest confirmation the tactic, certain criteria met of course, works.
I doubt there are many teams out there, that can afford these extra and costly skills to start with, let alone deciding to risk building such teams.
Apart from the economical disfunction of such an attempt, there is the tactical as well. Cause if someone risks it and builds such a team to attack 2-3 zones, he may very well end up being vulnerable to man to man!
If the ballhandling guards of a LI team have 19/13s, it is a very likely scenario, the ball not being fed inside enough, since the dominating attribute of the ballhandlers is jump shooting, instead the guards taking far more and contested jump shots, than any LI set up would like them to take.

Cause if someone risks it and builds such a team to attack 2-3 zones, he may very well end up being vulnerable to man to man!

Sorry to blow up your claim; I wish it was true because that's how it works in real life. I don't know if you saw Dyonisius players two seasons ago; he showed the skills of his players after winning B3 finals. Player with highest Passing had PA...

...Prolific (11) (11819545)
20 in OD, HA and PA. IS=15, PA=11, 18/10 shooting and only 135k of salary. His stat line: 7-10, 5 rb, 5 ast. With 19/13 shooting his salary increases to around 170k. He killed the M2M and 2-3 defense. Oh, and he'd have 134 skillpoints, which is not so hard to achiever on a player with good entry skills (it would take 8 seasons to train such a guy)

I'm still waiting to see a 2-3 defense that can deal with player of his caliber.

Last edited by Koperboy at 12/20/2013 9:46:22 AM

Player with highest Passing had PA...

...Prolific (11) (11819545)
20 in OD, HA and PA. IS=15, PA=11, 18/10 shooting and only 135k of salary.

I assume that the bolded PA above was supposed to be DR, because otherwise it would make no sense. ;)

As far as the general topic for discussion, I think it's fair to say that 2-3 should at least be elevated in the consensus opinion from worthless to be considered a useful tactic in specific situations. It's still not universally an improvement the way the outside zones are, though.

Thanks for the reply.

Taking aside how uncommon and hard it is to build such a team and extra salary expenses required, purely tactically, based on the data you provided i would really like your expert opinion:

Do you believe that the aforementioned player(in LI tactic) would function better for his team against man to man, with JS/JR 19-13 and IS 15 or like he was 18/10 and 15?

Since we're in the process of adding skills for conversational purposes, would you prefer the same player with 19/13 (plus four)outside and 15 inside or keeping the 18-10 outside and going (two up)17 inside?

I'm no expert, I'm just a guy who loves the game and tests a lot (not very recently though). I hope you didn't mean that in a sarcastic way.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that as long as guy's IS is high enough, I'm fine also with JS 19/JR 13. And we are talking about PG/SG only. It gives you lots of flexibility, as you can play him at PF for Patient for occasional surprise.
When I have time, I'll brake down the shots from PG and SG from Dyonisius against 2/3 and compare those to Mloty's opponents, playing against 2-3. The main difference I'm sure to find out if high IS.

High IS makes guards go for dunks and tough inside shots, which are much more difficult to defend than driving layups. That and high JS/JR is the main difference between Mloty's opponents and Dyonisius players.

Last edited by Koperboy at 12/20/2013 11:38:09 AM

Οk man, thanks.
Looking forward to the comparison data and your conclusions.

look inside with 19 shooters from 1-3 would suck, it would make your small forward a jumpshooter and you dont want that. Also shooting is really expensive at the 3 position.

18 for PG/SG and 15 for SF would have done it here. Or even better passing.

Yes, I was too hasty with SF spot, so 16 should be enough. 19/13 for 1-2 position because 18/10 was enough against "normal" 2-3, but Mloty's is much more advanced in OD compartment.

@Mamuwalde

Please, give a definition of "X tactic works".

I'm not sure what you are asking...?

@maddoghellas: I forgot to add one thing. In last few seasons the salary efficiency trend on bigs focused on lowering ID and RB (15-16) in favour of JS and especially IS. So when you play 2-3, it doesn't help much against PG/SG with IS 15/16 when they go to dunk the ball.

I don't know what works. I never said I know everything, but you act like I did. I know neither 2-3 nor M2M work against LI right now. Maybe 2-3 like Mloty's works with added SB, but unfortunately we don't have any data to work from yet. Right now LI offense is so good I can only work on the same thing everyone is working - learning how to perfect it better than the opponent becauseno defense won't stop it. So every game is a race of who's got the better offense and who can foul out their opponent's players before their own do.

So far the only countermeasure to LI is Patient, but your team has to be built very specifically - just like today's LI teams. But a team designed only to beat LI can be easily stopped by a good 3-2 since it's so narrow it doesn't have any other plan of attack. For now I don't think 3-2 from Dyionisius or Mloty can stop well-built Patient team because they would be at a disadvantage regarding Rebounding. However, a well-built Patient team takes seasons to build and so far I don't see anybody with such a team yet.