BuzzerBeater Forums

tanking can also be a strategy for long term continued success at the top level.

Sure, but it shouldn't....tanking does not usually work in the NBA (at the very least you need other managerial skills to pull it off) and NEVER works in any other league in the world.
Nowhere in the world can you make about the same amount of money from fans with a 0-22 record and a 12-12 record. Look here:http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2015/sort/allPct and then ask yourself if that seems to bear any correlation with on-court performance.

At that point I could have stayed on the same path, remaining reasonably competitive, but probably not winning anything for the foreseeable future. I choose to tank however, because I thought it a better long term decision that would allow me to come back stronger and be a future perennial title contender in Div 1.

Yeah well, there are other ways than taking the easy way: this guy http://www.buzzerbeater.com/team/162788/history.aspx took 10 seasons to get to D1 (from D5, although probably that was a bot league), another 5 seasons to get into the B3 and he has never relegated nor missed the KO phases of the B3 (in all but one appeareance getting to the quarterfinals or better). Has this other guy ever took the easy way? http://www.buzzerbeater.com/team/37519/history.aspx. Some of the best managers have built perennial contenders without tanking, those who needed tanking or bought titles are just not as good as those managers in my opinion. It's just as simple as that.
I started in s24 from D3, never missed the playoffs and I made the finals in D1 last season. I'm in a year where I will have to acquire a younger roster and, possibly, trainees and I'm many seasons away (probably) from securing a place at the top, however I'm not interested in winning by taking the easy way or any shortcut, especially because I would be no better than those I'm criticising.

So let's say it out loud: with trading mostly killed, tanking is the easiest way to get to the top and stay there. The problem is that it's completely unrealistic, it's counterintuitive and, more importantly, anyone can do it, it doesn't involve any skill or balancing exercise. I don't care if others have done it in the past, people made millions from daytrading too, but we still killed it, because it was good for the game. Preventing people from hoarding millions each season while not being competitive is also good for the game.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 11/18/2015 6:26:48 AM

@Lemonshine: I like the suggestions and we'll consider them next time we discuss solutions for tanking. As you also admit, your solutions aren't perfect. That's why it's so hard to take any route: each one has holes and needs exceptions, etc...

@Mike Franks: It would probably be less stressful for you if you accept the way training works in BB and not try to push change in a fundamental part of the game. It's not going to happen. Also, try not to post 4 posts in a row, rather use the @ sign to reference other managers.

@Everyone: Seems like the only thing we can all agree upon is that the fans response to tanking is inappropriate. Actually, seems like fans don't punish extremely bad results (like 0-22) with enough disdain, which makes tanking a financially viable option. So, it would make sense to change that fan response. It would't affect teams in bot leagues, and that's fine, there seems to be no solution that addresses that atm. We just need to figure out how to implement it

The discussion here has been helpful and I think you should all be commended for that. I understand that things can get heated and that sometimes we veer off topic but all in a all, I think it was constructive.

Thank you.

@Everyone: Seems like the only thing we can all agree upon is that the fans response to tanking is inappropriate. Actually, seems like fans don't punish extremely bad results (like 0-22) with enough disdain, which makes tanking a financially viable option. So, it would make sense to change that fan response.

Just keep an eye on new teams, that inherit the old teams record - some start at the end of a season, with really bad records. It would be horrible to punish new managers.

Yup, will do.

which generally all involve you wanting to eliminate all choice and consequence with no corresponding increase in complexity

Wow, you sure get upset when you get caught putting words in my mouth that I never said or would say (such as "I know you'd prefer the easy button mode where all you do is set one lineup and they play for you in perpetuity.") It is painfully obvious you don't have a clue what I advocate. To refresh your memory, I have consistently advocated for athletic competition rather than who-can-amass-millions-of-dollars, logical training rather than illogical Hattrick derivatives, and opportunity for lower- and mid-level teams that is sorely lacking currently.
That should sound familiar to you, because a lot of people advocate the same things I do. I sure wish you would quit your personal attacks on me. Isn't a GM supposed to set an example? A lot of us were discussing buzzerbeater and the proposed luxury tax, so please let us get back to our discussion. Thank you.

So, to sum it up, no concrete ideas (again), an attack on me (again) while simultaneously complaining that my post is an attack on you (again), and more wasted time on pointless discussion (again).

Wake me up if there's ever a time it goes from "Mike wants" (or "Mike complains about") to "Mike proposes" and I'll be happy to discuss that. Otherwise, I apologize to everyone for wasting their time responding to the latest version of your wishlist when all you have to contribute is what you want, not how you'd like to get there (again).

It would probably be less stressful for you if you accept the way training works in BB and not try to push change in a fundamental part of the game. It's not going to happen.

Oh, I have realized that quite some time ago. Anyone playing Buzzerbeater is stuck with it. Meanwhile, I'll continue to advocate for specific improvements in BB, such as improving the fan survey, the economy, free agency and training, at least until my Supporter runs out..

@Hrudey. Go away and leave me alone. Bullies are never welcome anywhere, even GM-bullies.

I'm more interested am I tanking currently? :)

By virtue of the fact that you're playing with 13 bots, no you're not tanking. I already said multiple times that at the lowest level you would not be able to implement any measure efficiently. If you made half the money (lower gates or higher floor) while going down, would feel equally good about being in D3? I don't think so.

This would leave us really with the micronation problem. In any case that is why I would personally link any measure to performance against human managers and not bots. Still only applying measures for established managers, with large arenas etc. etc.


Last edited by Lemonshine at 11/18/2015 11:20:18 AM