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The change isn't a perfect solution but a lot of suggestions were made that were never perfectly satisfying. You have probably made suggestions in the past to correct the problem, will you remind us your solution ? Or were you in favor of a status quo ?

What happens now for the 5th place used to happen for the 6th. It's less harmful as it is now. It was really frustrating for teams fighting a whole season for survival to face a tanking top team in an unbalanced PD contest. I have seen teams that could have gone for the title but as challengers who let themselves drop to 6th because the GM thought rightly or wrongly it was better for the long term.

I really better like it as it is now.

You can't implement rules to stop teams from giving up games. It would be impossible to enforce anyway.
There will always be teams who indirectly suffer from other teams letting go games or simply making mistakes, playing badly, losing unexpectedly. That's part of the game, it happens in real sports.

I am sure BBs would consider a better solution. Good suggestions are welcome.

The profits of ending up fourth is not just the better PR for the following season but also (depending on your schedule) better attendance in the last matches of the current season.

I was considering to purposely lose 2 or 3 matches but that would've cost me a lot of money now because less people would've watched my matches now.

Show us the math and I will stay mute for a whole season!

Everybody who is in favor of this change tells us that the additional income from higher fan survey outweighs the loss that occurs from paying the salaries and receiving the lowest arena income of the season (remember its the playoffs!!!) and yet nobody showed us some proof.

situation for my club would look like this if I finished fourth:

player salaries 720k - arena income 165k = 550k expenses

So one week of playoffs will cost me 550k (assuming that the fourth seed will lose against the no 1 seed), as the fifth seed I would save that money.

If the dropoff from fifth to sixth place is quite significant (tanking teams, bots whatever...) and I can tank a week or two without falling below 5th place the money saved is even more, so a clever manager could save around a million more just by finishing fifth.

Now please show me how I can make 550k-1.5 million more only through ticket sales and merchandise revenue (which seems to be pretty random and erratic to me).

The change isn't a perfect solution but a lot of suggestions were made that were never perfectly satisfying. You have probably made suggestions in the past to correct the problem, will you remind us your solution ? Or were you in favor of a status quo ?

What happens now for the 5th place used to happen for the 6th. It's less harmful as it is now. It was really frustrating for teams fighting a whole season for survival to face a tanking top team in an unbalanced PD contest. I have seen teams that could have gone for the title but as challengers who let themselves drop to 6th because the GM thought rightly or wrongly it was better for the long term.

I really better like it as it is now.

You can't implement rules to stop teams from giving up games. It would be impossible to enforce anyway.
There will always be teams who indirectly suffer from other teams letting go games or simply making mistakes, playing badly, losing unexpectedly. That's part of the game, it happens in real sports.

I am sure BBs would consider a better solution. Good suggestions are welcome.

You like to play a game that encourages the teams to lose and not to win?

We went from 1 side to the other side, it has been a change of 360 degrees and totally a wrong change.

As Knecht said, you can save a quite good amount of money by finishing fifth(and also better situation for the draft), even if the PR for the next season isn't ''that good'' i doubt that the difference between 4th and fifth it's high.

And if i'm wrong I would like to see some data about the opportunity cost between 5th or 4th, but i bet that in a 80-90% of the cases is better to finish 5th than 4th.

You can't really add the money saved by tanking. because if you do, the 4th placed team could just follow suit and thus save the same amount. So I won't take that into consideration.

Then the top team in your divison has a sell out capacity that equals approx. 600k income and since it is a playoff game that number will likely be reached. Putting the arena income closer to 200k than to 165k. So the extra income by being fourth has to cover 520k expenses.

If you have to tank an away game to reach 5th you will lose approx. 50k your next home game. leaving 470k.

My guess is you would loose 15k in revenue and merchandising each homegame. 470k - 15k x 11 ~ 300k

The 5% chance for a victory and an extra game with approx. 200k revenue equals an 10k mean, but that could be the extra value of the higher draft pick, so we can leave it at a 300k loss.

And i won't consider the extra training, since everybody has to train stamina and freethrows or do 2-position every now and then anyway


granted that is quite a sum. but a salary of 720k is pretty high for a 4th or 5th seed. And since you likely have only one game that playoff week and don't need good gameshape the upcoming week, you could easily sell some of your end of the roation guys and reduce your payroll signifacently [...but you could argue that, if everybody does that, player prices will go down during that period and what you win in reduced salary is lost in reduced transfer revenue, but that is far to complex to grasp in simple numbers].

So in conclusion I would guess, most teams look at a net loss of 100k for finishing 4th instead of 5th, if the number is higher (due to payroll) than their chance of advancing should be much better than 5%, otherwise it is just bad managment in most cases. while a net loss of 100k for being the better team is far from ideal, it is not nearly as bad as you're trying to make it sound. But maybe a small bonus for reaching the playoffs would be a good solution.

You like to play a game that encourages the teams to lose and not to win?

lol x 100

Is it bad faith or really what you got from my post ?

Before the change, teams would purposely lose to finish 6th, now they purposely lose to finish 5th. The situation was not created by the new rule. If that's what bothers you, outline clearly how to avoid this situation. As I have said, I am yet to see a good, practical and fair suggestion.

Before the change, you'd win more money by finishing 6th than 5th and also a better draft pick. The situation was not created by the new rule.

In my opinion, the new rule is a lesser evil partly because of what I have tried to explain in my previous post and that you have totally missed out.

We went from 1 side to the other side, it has been a change of 360 degrees and totally a wrong change.

Aren't you overdramatizing by chance ? What is this deadly gameplay spin I am unaware of ?

And by the way, 360 degrees is a full circle, if you turn on yourself 360°, you end up facing the same direction. You want to say a 180 degrees change. I am not making fun of you, it's a common mistake, I am only pointing at the correct expression.

C'mon it's the playoffs!! Teams should raise their ticket prices and still have a full arena. The problem here is that playoffs are too short. One game and you are out! Playoffs should be a series of three games (all in the same week).

I don't understand why any team should split their attendance income with another team.

Any thoughts?

You like to play a game that encourages the teams to lose and not to win?

lol x 100

Is it bad faith or really what you got from my post ?

Ofc not ¡ xD Was talking in general, the game give more bonus for the fifth than for the fourth, that's all.

About the 360 degrees it's a ''spanish set phrase''... i didn't think it had no meaning in english haha ¡

Last edited by Marot at 7/6/2011 5:23:04 PM