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1) Butler had not played for the Mavs most of the season.
Chandler had a big role (as I wrote), but it wasn't the biggest role in the team.
What is most definately happens in BB and not in the real world (and to that I implied) is that the MVP of a team may be purchased just before playoff.
This does not happen in "real world" as the performance a new player could bring to a team is much less comparing to what he could give after a short whil and this is due to this lack of "Team chemistry" feature.

2) Scouts has (big) role in a team and they are not just watching for new players in a draft.
It is especially essential here due to the case I wrote above.
One cannot analyze a player which just arrived before playoff.
There are great difference between leagues, and like Morison career in college could not helped the team who faced LA to analyze its abilities, the same is true about a player who comes just seconds before playoff.
And ofcourse there are the opposite cases of players who wasn't impressive in one league and was legendary in the NBA.

3) Auctions does not happen in the real world!
The player will want to get the best price and will not sign for a team just that it happened to be at a specific unconvenient time where others could not attend to.
The deal is not made by the manager of a bakerball team but by agents from both sides.
The team's agent is given instructions what is the max value a player can have, and that person will try to close the best deal for the team under this definitions.
Sounds very much like Auto-Bidding for me...

"Team chemistry" is not incidentally a common phrase in sports, as it has big impact on team's performance at the court.
It may come to you with big supprise, but one of pre-camp main goals is to work on this "Team chemistry".
and I'll repeat again...
What is most definately happens in BB and not in the real world (and to that I implied) is that the MVP of a team may be purchased just before playoff.
This does not happen in "real world" as the performance a new player could bring to a team is much less comparing to what he could give after a short whil and this is due to this lack of "Team chemistry" feature.

BTW, I was "shocked" to see that you, who has no hidden reason to oppose this suggestion (as you wrote), "incidentally" had bought your most expensive player (and most valuable one) just seconds before playoff started.
A player who has almost twice as much salary compared to any other team-mate you have.

I'm "shocked" an totaly "supprised". How can it be that it corellated your uncivilzed opposing this suggestion.
What your done (by buying that player seconds before playoff) just proved that this feature is one of the more needed features.
Thanks!

Last edited by Pini פיני at 10/28/2011 8:46:52 AM

As I wanted to have a shorter version of my response, I added this message.

I was "shocked" to see that you, "who has no hidden reason to oppose this suggestion" (as you wrote), "incidentally" had bought your most expensive player (and most valuable one) just seconds before playoff started.
A player who has almost twice as much salary compared to any other team-mate you have.
Where does this happen in the real world?
Does a player who have just been added to a team plays just as good as when some chemistry with his teamate will be created?

I'm "shocked" and I am totaly "supprised".
How can it be that it corellates to your uncivilzed way of opposing this suggestion.

What you've done (by buying that player seconds before playoff) just proved that this feature is one of the more needed features.
Thanks!



Last edited by Pini פיני at 10/28/2011 8:52:13 AM

What is most definately happens in BB and not in the real world (and to that I implied) is that the MVP of a team may be purchased just before playoff.
This does not happen in "real world" as the performance a new player could bring to a team is much less comparing to what he could give after a short whil and this is due to this lack of "Team chemistry" feature.

in mostly europe states this didn't happen, cause of trading deadlines who also exist in the nba but i don't know how it is there. Puerto Rico have a quite good basketleague, especially in summer when the play offs start, cause many european player go their right before the play offs, as key players.

Chandler had a big role (as I wrote), but it wasn't the biggest role in the team.

probadly you say the same about Bron who played for the second best team too. Butler didn't played for injury, and chemistry isn't all about star polayer, ecxchanging role player might be even more important, cause they need to fight for minutes hard that the starters play hard for their minutes too.

Buit wewhen it is only about stars, for you why you are so angry about such transfer for my team, who add up to seven new player a season (19379328)(which is also quite normal comparing to real world action)

in mostly europe states this didn't happen, cause of trading deadlines who also exist in the nba but i don't know how it is there. Puerto Rico have a quite good basketleague, especially in summer when the play offs start, cause many european player go their right before the play offs, as key players.

Doesn't contradicts any.
A good player is a good player.

BUT...
He will give much more to a team after he will be part of it for a while.

The main player of a team issue.
The key player is just taking the importance of the "team-chemistry" issue to extreme, as the team needs to make much more changes when the key player is a new one.

Miami and LeBron are great example.
They needed time to adjust to this new player who came in the summer, participate in their pre-camp (for getting "team-chemistry") and was now their new main player.
As you remember, Miami didn't looked that good at the first 20 games or so. At least not quite as good as they look at the end of the season...
Again, thank you for your example! It assisted me driving my point here.

The key player is just taking the importance of the "team-chemistry" issue to extreme, as the team needs to make much more changes when the key player is a new one.

you really mix that up with systems, chemistry is how you understand with your teammates, how the motivation is in the game and training. Chemistry is mental, and there it could be helpful, when hope in person of a new player comes.

The execution of system need a bit, but one player alone could be integrated nearly right away.

Here get discussed about chemistry, and that really not so easy that new is bad and keeping the same is good.

But when you reduce the ability to play, and the new player is on the bench or maybe even in the public this haven't to do with the systems. Also here the game shape approach would be better, cause it affect the play when the new guy(s) are on floor and it goes away in the next weeks. And when you look back, i even put that as one of the explanations for it.

Even when i am saying a bit activity shouldn't get punished, so i would do nothing here.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 10/28/2011 10:12:49 AM

As you can see in previous threads on this topic, I disagree with adding chemistry to this game since it is too difficult to calculate personalities into the players, and chemistry is not just about familiarity, but also about the personalities. Just like some elements do not bond well and other do, some elements are inert while others are dynamic, some elements bond with some elements but not other, etc., real players sometimes make better teammates over while others get sick and tired of each other and cause problems in the locker room. Time together does not necessarily make for "better chemistry".

If there are any adjustments that I would like to see related to this discussion, however, they would include these two:

First, if this is not already a part of the equation, I would like to see "number of games played with current team", perhaps in conjunction with "role", to be a significant part of the Fan Survey impact being familiar with the star players. A long-time role player off the bench typically has as much local familiarity as the regular starters and fans don't like to see players like that get traded.

Second, I strongly think there should be an earlier deadline for play-off eligible player transfers. This is in part related tot he realism of the chemistry issues in this thread (see, I'm not totally blind to the chemistry issues), since even though I'm not in favor of a chemistry factor here, I think it is strange that a team can easily buy a player who is instantly the best player on the roster and be a huge factor in the playoffs without playing more than a game or two in the regular season with the team. But this is also in part to the strategy that I see teams employ a lot (I've almost done this myself) of saving cash all season with an average team, and then just buying a championship roster at the absolute last moment. Sure, it's a strategy that can work and anybody can do this, but I think it detracts from the enjoyment of the game. It really stinks for a team to smartly manage a first place team all season and then have some other team roll the dice with a huge deficit-spending splurge for the playoffs wreck the playoffs for him (or her). Therefore, I propose a playoff roster deadline two weeks before the end of the season.

To be honest I never expressed an opinion here on Team Chemistry (with which I tend more to agree than not).
I just made a joke on your previous feats
It came across as uncivil - it was just supposed to be ironic (and I don't feel the need to reply to your n-th point-by-point debating, because it really was just a joke).
It was surely Off Topic, but uncivil? Meh.
We all should be able to laugh now and then!

I bought Karaplis because I needed him, that's all.
It's not that a Team Chemistry feature would have prevented me from buying him, would it?
I would have bought him regardless, because I was completely unhappy with my former SF and I needed a new starter.

Like I've said, I can't have any hidden agenda because I agree in principle with this suggestion.
(Which goes to prove that you tend to see hidden agendas everywhere).

I agree that chemistry issues are relevant.
But also that "personality" is an element that is key to chemistry, but that is not considered at all.

Hence, a new proposal:

Why not add a "personality" ability to players?

I understand it would be a huge change to the simulation, though. Definitely huge.

But here's some reasons:

1) In real life, teams do take into account personality/attitude during the transfer market. The sheer assessment of a player during a trade can vary a lot if he's a headcase or if he has the "team first" attitutde or if he's a born leader etc.

2) Of course personality affects on-court performance as well. The LeBrons of this world disappear in the 4th quarter. The Larry Birds give everything they have to win. This is an essential aspect of the real game; there is no trace of it in BB. Unless it is hidden. Is it?

3) If you want to add a Team Chemistry feature (which would be needed if properly conceived) you necessarily need the "personality" concept in BB.

PS Should I make a separate thread for this? Or maybe it has already been discussed?

Last edited by Stavrogin at 10/28/2011 11:34:21 AM

You could start a new thread on personality if you want to suggest it, but I can tell you here that the likelihood of this actually getting created are significantly less than the likelihood that my wife will be okay with the idea of me taking another dozen wives and making her sleep outside on the terrace. Not that it hasn't stopped me from suggesting that, either (which explains my limp). I don't want to you discourage your suggestion. I definitely think it would give a lot of new depth to the game. It's just that the complexity involved just seems to go way beyond the scope of the BB simulation. Remember, it's also not realistic that we can see things like a numeric skill level for players' skill. Can you imagine knowing if a real player's JS was a 5 or 7? It's totally unrealistic player evaluation information, but that's just the nature of the game. If personality were a new component, I think we'd see no end of complaints about how this one more thing that we have to worry about with managing our teams and there would a ton of debate about how personality should be created and how it would work. We already get a ton of discussion about the hidden Aggressive attribute as it is. Personality would dwarf Aggressiveness in controversy. That's why I suggested what I suggested, since I think those two items, particularly the latter one, should be both feasible to implement without too much difficulty (easy for me to say!), and are not terribly controversial (and both very reasonable, if I can say so myself).

Ahahah you did discourage me a lot

Yeah I can see how big an earthquake it would be to the simulation.
Too bad it wasn't thought of at the very beginning of the development (I think that at that early stage a good solution could have been found).

Well this is a nice story that tried (too) hard not to relate to the facts that:

1) A player (and a key player more than others) will assist his new team much more when he will be part of the team for few weeks (AKA "team-chemistry").
You brang the example - how does Miami played at the begining of the season and how at the end of it [exluding their finals... :+) ]

2) The pre-camp is not for training and getting back to shape as independent parts (players).
It is about creating a "team-chemistry".

3) It is not normal that the MVP of a team will be bought seconds before playoff.
The affect of that should be even more negative to a team "team-chemistry" wise.