BuzzerBeater Forums

sorry yes.. that was looking at 547079, brianjames's game.

ok, but i think you read this backward:

Even though you were a better rebounding team.. they got more rebounds (i don't think that's a bug, just bad luck, but i will check), the also got more foul shots (perhaps you are a more physical team .. or maybe you were just down at the end). You did end up shooting better than they did..

I had more rebounds, more foul shots, fewer turnovers. He shot 52% to my 46%. So, I could see this make sense if I had made some poor tactical choices or my off v def / def v off ratings were just weaker. Such as, using a 3-2 zone against an inside team (like my opponent, Hoosiers, did). Instead of being rewarded with a higher coaching rating and better shooting % for choosing a 2-3 defense against an inside team, the opposite happened, and the 3-2 against an inside opponent received a higher shooting % AND a higher coaching rating. On top of this, all off vs def ratings were favorable to my team.

.. but the combination of fouls, turnovers and off. rebounds made up for the difference and the eaked out a win. I bet you play this game 10 times you win most of them (i will try it later tonight in our test universe and see).

Cool, be interesting to see the results. If it's just an unlucky result that happens, but if its something thats messed up with the coding then hopefully this helps.

Edited 7/9/2007 10:23:29 PM by brianjames

yeah sorry i was reading that sort of backwards.. err... it seems to me the real problem was that you took 16 3 pointers when you were shooting a good percentage inside... and since you were focused inside.. i don't see why you would have taken all those bad 3s...

ahh.. i know... and this is something that needs to be adjusted with our simulation.. not a bug cause its doing what we told it to do, and what we wanted it to do... just it needs to be doing something different.

I'm not sure how much of the reason i should discuss but this has definitely given me an insight that I will discuss with charles, and implement soon.

Edited 7/9/2007 10:50:56 PM by BB-Forrest

It did seem odd that I would shoot so many outside shots. On top of that, it seems even more odd that I would shoot 0% compared to Hoosiers shooting ~35% (4/11), when our perimeter off/def where nearly identical. If just one of those 16 3's had connected, I'd have won and would have never brought this all up!

Anyway, feel free to share as much as you can about this Am I wrong in guessing it has something to do with team attitude?


Edited 7/9/2007 11:06:04 PM by brianjames

exactly which is what lead me to my epiphany.. there is a good reason why you are taking bad 3 pointers... its cause those bad 3 pointers are still well above average 3 pointers... just you really really suck so well above average is still sucky.

well team attitude should be reflected in the zonal ratings... those ratings are not a function of just how your players base ratings.. but actually what their effective ratings were when you put them out on the floor. IE if someone is very tired they aren't very good anymore and that will bring down your zonal ratings.. yet another reason why the coaching rating as we have it isn't a goodone... as preventing players from getting tired by setting a proper depth chart.. is part of coaching but now is getting normalized out.

Edited 7/9/2007 11:17:41 PM by BB-Forrest

exactly which is what lead me to my epiphany.. there is a good reason why you are taking bad 3 pointers... its cause those bad 3 pointers are still well above average 3 pointers... just you really really suck so well above average is still sucky

Sure, my perimeter scoring is crap, but Hoosiers was just as bad (just slightly worse actually), yet he knocked down 4/11 to my 0/16. And, if there is a good reason my team was taking that many 3s when inside scoring was successful, then I'm not sure I understand at all what that is.

Well two things... first that is an weighted average over your players you put on the court.. weighted by position and playing time.. there might have been one defender who is bad at covering the perimeter and those are where he made his 4 shots... i mean 4/11 isn't exactly on fire from 3 either. To really microdissect what happened I'd have to look at who was on the floor when they took their shots and what the matchups were.... this game is not as simplistic to analyze as hattrick in that zonal ratings don't really directly plug into results... they are actually an average overview of what's going on. It has been Charles and my general opinion (and we are the main game engine developers) that a simulation as simple as hattricks wouldn't really work very well for basketball.. we wanted to make a game with more realism and more complexity that would hopefully better reflect the dynamics of basketball as we understand them. Now whether we are succeeding at that is another story.. and whether such a thing is fun to play with is yet another... we hope the answers will at least eventually be yes.

Second remember that he was playing a 3-2 which does make your outside shooting worse...and you were looking inside which makes your outside shooting even worse. Those two tactical modifiers are not included in the zonal ratings. The problem is that your team should have recognized how you had no chance to score outside.. and furthermore was told not to look outside.. and decided to take no shots. Neither of those things are happening exactly as we want them to.

One idea that charles and I have been throwing around is trying to make an automated news recap of the game which would highlight the important plays and important factors in the win or loss. If you begin to think about what his would entail you can imagine its complexity... but we like challenges... But i definitely think we need another tool for users to examine there game without having to sit through a whole replay.. and with a little more detail than a box score gives you.


Edited 7/10/2007 1:32:53 AM by BB-Forrest

This is all very good feedback, especially the note about how zonal ratings and tactics.

It seems you have come to answer the issue I had. First, what was up with the coaching ratings. This appeared to be answered as my team took poor outside shots and lowered the coaching rating. Thus, the issue comes to how the engine for some reason decided not to take advantage of inside scoring at the same time I told my team to focus inside.

I do understand this a beta, so pressing my issue was a bit of both being confused/frustrated at the loss and trying to provide feedback for you guys to work with. I'd say it's a good sign that I'm bringing this all up as I do enjoy playing this game. Otherwise, I'd not even waste my time.