BuzzerBeater Forums

Why must I explain to people over and over and over and over.... I don't care WHAT offense you run, if you GIMP IS, yo uwill GIMP your bigs scoring. The best motion team basically in the world is telling you he runs 19 IS on a big. For darn good reason!!!

You can not control shot selection. You can not force your C to shoot outside anymore than you can stop him from attempting 3s. People have tried for seasons on end, and NO we CAN NOT tell our players how or where to shoot from. We just can't.

So I repeat, until you understand it. IF you gimp your IS on your bigs, your offence will suck. especially on that big. Giving him PA, JS, JR whatever else you want to give him WILL NOT change the fact that...HE WILL MISS A BUNCH OF SHOTS~ putbacks for starters. Dunks too. and Layups.

Here are the shot breakdowns for my three big men - I'll include their IS as well. This is for this season in league games, which have all been Princeton and I think other than a few odd minutes at SF early, have all been at the PF/C positions.

Henry Busch (11 IS) : 54 inside shots (36 contested, 18 open) , 22 drives, 54 jump shots, 26 3 point shots
Joseph Cheek (7 IS): 32 inside shots (20 contested, 12 open), 52 drives, 59 jump shots, 31 3 point shots
Michael Klein (8 IS): 21 inside shots (9 contested, 12 open), 3 drives, 24 jump shots, 13 3 point shots.

Where I will agree with you is that they are all shooting abysmally on contested inside shots because they're facing guys with more ID than their IS by a pretty big margin. But if you look at the number of jumpers and threes they've taken compared to the inside shots (and of course Cheek's drives), I'm more than happy with the shot distribution here - though if I could drop Busch's IS to like 8, I'd probably be happier. ;)

I have no data on your team's flow or your bigs outside shooting skills or their DR.

Are drives part of your inside shot number or seperate??? What % of the shots are the bigs taking compared to other positions?

I guess I will assume that drives were not counted with inside shots. on driving shots, I believe IS is a factor. Low IS guards will miss their layups if opponent guards have ID, and with the GE update SB also seems to work.

--snipped some stuff out--

Princeton doesn't seem to be giving you bigs that don't shoot inside or drive on the basket. Maybe you should try patient but you'll need to figure out how to make sure it doesn't pick your no IS big for the offensive player. YOu might say, oh I'll just build a big with insane outside shooting, in this case, if he has high JS, JR and RB, with OD and other guard skills...he will shift at very least to PF and most likely SF (or SG) formula, his salary will be huge (JS+RB is huge multiplier in all formulas) and IS will be practically free. All of my SFs have IS higher than JS and RB, but still if I raise their IS any, it costs them 0 salary for another point, I keep it just under the sweet spot. Free high IS is so awesome....

To answer some of the data questions:

The team's flow is balanced for lack of a better word. No real assist machines and surprisingly low top end passing, but no holes in HA / PA either. So basically a bunch of guys who average between 2-4 assists per game, and everyone above 1.5 A/TO ratio.

As far as outside shooting and DR on the bigs: Cheek's at about 10.8 JS/8 JR/13.9 DR. Busch is 9.1 JS/8.4 JR/12.9 DR. Klein's gimped because he was a draftee and even though he started with 7OD and 7ID, I would never have trained him otherwise with his godawful starting guard skills. But he's rehabilitated a little, up to 7.9 JS/5.1 JR/10.9 DR. Of course, I'm planning on training more driving and getting the JS up a little more eventually, once I'm done slogging through this ID/RB road. Of course, I want to do more passing on them eventually too, and I'm not sure I'll ever get all that done with them already at 23 years old.

The overall shooting breakdown (not by position) is that the team's taken 275 inside shots (converting 47%), 291 drives (46%), 738 jumpers (48%) and 484 threes (33%).

So anyway, with that said, I'm absolutely counting drives separately from inside shots because they are different shots and I don't need IS to convert those. And it's definitely true that the skills are affecting whether the players take drives or regular inside shots.My legacy C who starts at PF when I'm single positioning at C has a far more typical big man build with mediocre outside offensive skills and he's taken 74 inside shots, 0 drives, 24 jumpers and 9 threes. Of course, he's only got 7 HA/7PA, so that might explain why he's stuck taking so many shots down low or really almost ever attempting threes.

Naturally, I'd prefer the guys not take the contested inside shots for the most part - open ones of course are fine. But I don't mind at all if they drive, or shoot jumpers or threes. And for the amount of salary it would cost to increase their IS to where I'd *want* them to try to shoot over opposing trees, ugh, no thank you. I'm liking the results just fine as it is. Your mileage may vary. ;)

And still no one has researched big men with low IS and high in other areas. I find that very strange. Dont you?
Like this build for example:

 8  6
 8 10
 8 10
 8 14
15 14

A player that will have a 50k salary and that only needs P.Allstar potential. You can even do with less shooting and add some more PA instead as that trains fast.
A player like this surely will perform real well for a very long time for most clubs. Sadly though they are so rare that it's not even funny.
If we want to take SM's path we can give him a 15/10/115/8 build instead and he still will be effective but in another way.
What im trying to point at is that there are ways to create efficient players for other offenses then LI. If you only bother to try that is.

This guy can at best play in a D III division,in an outside oriented team,being a specialized defender.This guy would get destroyed at highest levels.If you really want to do it something defcent for a superior division,you would need to swap handling for OD

Its no easy answer to this. I think what your saying is very debate-able. I might have one of the best outside shooting in all div 4 .Go look at my salary those guys are not weak in skills. The other team just play LI /m2m and boost od, boom the "W" is there.

Should i spend 250K$ a week on my team or should push it 400K a week which is the max I can afford before I break my bank account and is run off bb for ever. You make it sound like these super upper league teams have it figured out in reality a few of my personal players come from those same upper teams your talking about skill about the same.

While I have not played in B3 or anything of that nature. I assume the best teams that are beating li have a 25 million dollar team or has spent as much. Maybe even renting those player for a season or just for the b3 tourney.

Li is over powered along with od in some cases, because a od with od 9-13 should not be stopping jr15, js16 which I do have. So I don't see any easy answer , waiting for data and results don't make this any better. I don't have all the answers but what I do have is a lost to teams that play LI and high OD, in lower division.. Let me tell you my salary is high because I have outside shooters not LI players.. My team cant play LI or low post to save it life.

Last edited by Mr. Glass at 8/29/2013 2:30:36 PM

Its no easy answer to this. I think what your saying is very debate-able. I might have one of the best outside shooting in all div 4 .Go look at my salary those guys are not weak in skills. The other team just play LI /m2m and boost od, boom the "W" is there.

Should i spend 250K$ a week on my team or should push it 400K a week which is the max I can afford before I break my bank account and is run off bb for ever. You make it sound like these super upper league teams have it figured out in reality a few of my personal players come from those same upper teams your talking about skill about the same.

While I have not played in B3 or anything of that nature. I assume the best teams that are beating li have a 25 million dollar team or has spent as much. Maybe even renting those player for a season or just for the b3 tourney.

Li is over powered along with od in some cases, because a od with od 9-13 should not be stopping jr15, js16 which I do have. So I don't see any easy answer , waiting for data and results don't make this any better. I don't have all the answers but what I do have is a lost to teams that play LI and high OD, in lower division.. Let me tell you my salary is high because I have outside shooters not LI players.. My team cant play LI or low post to save it life.

The only applicable analogy here that I can think of is that not everyone graduates in the top half of their class; there also have to be everyone else that makes the top half possible.

Salaries are pretty meaningless, especially in IV - I got far better production out of 10-15k salary guys in my time there than many teams got out of 30-40k players. But I refused to buy big men unless they had good handling, passing and OD - and as it turned out, that worked quite well. I'm taking that further by training my own big men with even better guard skills, and having seen that succeed as well as it has to this point, I'm probably going to finetune this with another generation of guys in a few seasons.

Hopefully some of this will help you make progress. Don't buy players with bad OD, HA or PA, ever (unless you're going to train them and fix that). Try not to end up with a player that fouls as frequently as your C does. Or, you know, do whatever you want to do and keep making that top half possible.

Wolph I am going to have to disagree with you. I have 3 high quality big men that I have played this season each with radically diferent skillsets.

Sonada is basically all primaries. He has high IS but little JS or DR. Total 30 points of offensive skills.
Eita Wakatsuki has incredible secondaries as well as very high IS. Total 46 points of offensive kills.
Takayoshi Kishita doesn't even know what the basket looks like he has ridiculously low IS. Total 24 points of offensive skills.


So surely if IS was as key as everyone thinks Sonada and Eita would score at a much better rate than Kishita.

Sonada hits at 59%.
Eita hits at 54%.
Kishita hits at 53%.

Eita has nearly DOUBLE the offensive skills & hits 1% better. EIta has much better offensive skills than Sonada but hits at a 5% lower rate.

It makes no sense to me. :P

What was the OD? Did you not see my point that its pointless to make such an evaluation on bigs that don't have OD??? If they don't have OD, of course their D sucks. What we need to know is, given OD, can SB make an impact?

That's stupid
If you're going up against a post up guy in a look inside offense than I shouldn't have to worry about his OD
THAT'S the whole point
man to man, A guy that can stop inside offense and block shots, why the hell SHOULD he need OD???????????????????????
That's what guards are for, to try and stop the pass from coming in
but once it's there....Opposing Center trying to score at the basket....CAN YOU STOP HIM???