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that's what I'm talking about...
it's not like they didn't have a benefit from it so far... they did...
so a idk, 60-70% max would be acceptable.. you can't get money back for the workers that build the arena, and you need to pay the workers to demolish a part of the seating and rearrange the new layout... so anyway... 100% is a bit too much since as I said, it already generated profit for the teams... giving 100% back is saying that those seats were never used and didn't generate any kind of profit and that's wrong

(no hard feelings, just discussing things here... don't shoot the messenger :)) )

I dont care either way... the fact is that the teams that wish to downsize and perhaps cash in upwards of $5mil can buy a great new player.. no big deal...

That money couldve been used to skill trade and replace non-trainees and it wasn't. There really is no clear cut argument for or against. The game is about improving your franchise. The teams that opted for arena improved their franchise within the rules of the game. Now the rules have changed they are being allowed to back track.

The mistake that was made that distorted the economy was the introduction of potentials... this killed everyone that invested heavily in the best allstar trainees overnight.... they didnt get a refund mind you so I see your point on the arena.

For me I kept up with a lot of the aggressive expanders but not so much. The way i see it now is to build more this season then charge a fortune for the play-offs, then deliberately sell back to 22-25,000 for the opening day of the next season (as from experience and hints there I will lose 30%+ fans from game 3 of the playoffs to game 1 of the new season.)..

I think the upside is that the surplus money may act as a catalyst for some player valuation growth....

I dont care either way...

I agree with Superfly. However, the selection of a refund amount percentage will be of much more importance to some of the other teams with large arenas (many of the German teams), with essentially no effect on the "lower echelon" of BB.

that's what I'm talking about...
it's not like they didn't have a benefit from it so far... they did...
so a idk, 60-70% max would be acceptable.. you can't get money back for the workers that build the arena, and you need to pay the workers to demolish a part of the seating and rearrange the new layout... so anyway... 100% is a bit too much since as I said, it already generated profit for the teams... giving 100% back is saying that those seats were never used and didn't generate any kind of profit and that's wrong

(no hard feelings, just discussing things here... don't shoot the messenger :)) )

i would say 150% would be fair, as compensation for the missing succes ;) Instead of taing those guys for making an investion, to generate profit so high that they loose money.

It would therefore be more fair to give back money only for arena builds that finished less than 20 home games ago, i.e., to teams that have not had the chance to earn back their build money yet.

ähm ... Sorry no .. This logic doesn't have anything to do with the arena think working here ... First of all you should look at prices, and the arenas who should be redoced works often below standard price ...

Secondly if youbuild 5 seats extra and sell them, you can not count ticket prices * 5 to look how much money the seats generate - no you normally balance those ticket prices that you get sold those additional 5 seat so you have taken these number and "-" the old seats * price difference. And if this sum is zero, the teams make profit, and this is a lot more then 20 games.

The example before from me, with 55 VIP lounges i making 33k, with 95 i would make 40k. Lets count:

40 * 16.000 - X * 7.000 = 0
X = 40 * 16.000/7000
X = 20
oh shit
X = 91.4

Damn you should play " the price is hot", you are master of estimation. Hey and don't forget in the last season, we only get 90% of the price, with reduce the difference to 6.300, and we have less fans which reducing it additionaly, and you will crush the faktor 5 ...

While it's improbable that these teams would spend all their money at once on the transfer market, what will certainly happen is that the teams with larger arenas will get a cash infusion which they can then use as a cushion for their bankrolls.

one question, what do you think have teams done, with the money who don't invest on the arena?

Did you suggest that every team should instantly loose 30% of their money, because else they will invest it on the transfer market and runining the prices? At BB this has to happen instantly, else the problems appears few minutes before regulation - i see many player like things like that.

Except that many managers who do not reside on the BB Mt.Olympus might choose to knock out a few thousand seats to get some cash, even if their arena only holds 8000 people.

It seems like it will be valuable strategy to chop one's arena by about 30%, cash in for around 3.5mil, charge max prices in the newer, louder, cozier arena and still get the same revenue. those figures are rough and based only on my arena, but probably fairly similar to many d1 and even d2 teams in regular sized countries.

The one mitigating factor that just crossed my mind is the deconstruction time. It might be a 7000 day estimate to tear down 8000 seats.

As with most things in this game, I think a wait and see how things will really be attitude might be best, for now.

Last edited by somdetsfinest at 6/16/2009 9:33:49 AM

there currently seems no reason for any team thinking they can make the play-offs to build more with any surplus cash they have (assuming they are not looking at upgrading players) then try make 100-200k profit in the playoffs and then promptly tear down the surplus they dont want or think they will need to carry.

How many bleachers traders will we get this season...

All those that follow me say 'I' !!!!

You are right, unless the waiting time to get your dough back is long enough to discourage that activity. Maybe 100 seats at atime will take 1 day, but if you go for the whole left side of your arena at once it will take you four seasons.

I sort of hope this is the way it goes, so that teams aren't suddenly receiving bales of benjamins dropped from single prop cessnas in the middle of the night.

except you cant build large amounts of seat instantly.

there currently seems no reason for any team thinking they can make the play-offs to build more with any surplus cash they have (assuming they are not looking at upgrading players) then try make 100-200k profit in the playoffs and then promptly tear down the surplus they dont want or think they will need to carry.

How many bleachers traders will we get this season...

All those that follow me say 'I' !!!!

yes thats right, this season it makes sense to put every non used dollar in the arena, but without knowing which was a good amount of seats the next season is probadly the best way to avoid the opposite way, in which even necessary builds in the arena won't happen.

except you cant build large amounts of seat instantly.

you can say that again!!!!

you can't build anything to the deadlines given :(

ähm ... Sorry no .. This logic doesn't have anything to do with the arena think working here ... First of all you should look at prices, and the arenas who should be redoced works often below standard price ...

Fine, give them back money only for seats less than 24 home games old.

Secondly if youbuild 5 seats extra and sell them, you can not count ticket prices * 5 to look how much money the seats generate - no you normally balance those ticket prices that you get sold those additional 5 seat so you have taken these number and "-" the old seats * price difference. And if this sum is zero, the teams make profit, and this is a lot more then 20 games.

The example before from me, with 55 VIP lounges i making 33k, with 95 i would make 40k. Lets count:

40 * 16.000 - X * 7.000 = 0
X = 40 * 16.000/7000
X = 20
oh shit
X = 91.4

If a seat costs you $200 to build, and you sell it for $10, you only need to sell it 20 times to make your money back. I don't know where you're getting the "7,000" figure above. The statement that you make 33K with 55 luxury boxes but only 40K with 95 luxury boxes doesn't match reality. You're selling them at $650, so it takes you 24.6 home games to make back the value of one box, and you pull in $35K per home game from those seats. And if you had 95 instead of 54 (not 55), you would be making nearly $62K, not $40K.

Even if it was that much harder to sell out more seats -- so what? If you happen to be in the Bundesliga and overbuilt seats, say in an attempt to reach the top of the arena-size leaderboard by jacking your stadium up to -- what is it now? -- 28,548 capacity, and you can't sell out your seats, then seating capacity was a bad investment from the get-go. Having made your bad investment, you now want to be bailed out entirely? Do you work for Merrill Lynch?

Damn you should play " the price is hot", you are master of estimation. Hey and don't forget in the last season, we only get 90% of the price, with reduce the difference to 6.300, and we have less fans which reducing it additionaly, and you will crush the faktor 5 ...

I'm not sure what this means.

one question, what do you think have teams done, with the money who don't invest on the arena?

I'll tell you what they haven't done -- they haven't earned any money back by selling the seats they didn't build to fans. You did. And if you didn't, as I noted above, you made a lousy investment and don't deserve to see a full return.

Did you suggest that every team should instantly loose 30% of their money, because else they will invest it on the transfer market and runining the prices? At BB this has to happen instantly, else the problems appears few minutes before regulation - i see many player like things like that.

This is pure straw man argument. I never said anything about taking money from anyone. What I said was that allowing players with bloated arenas to sell back large numbers of seats after having made tons of money from selling those seats was not a step calculated to please the more recent additions to the BB universe. Nor, from my perspective among the many looking up, does it seem particularly fair for early starters like yourself to receive, in effect, a no-interest loan to bail you out of your previous indulgences.

Last edited by crimedevil at 6/16/2009 10:49:57 PM