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i really need to sit down and read this whole thread and maybe try to summarize the various points of view. I thought I'd just throw some bit of data into the discussion based upon my research of the transfer market.

It seems that the market is a bit funny. First there is absolutely no support for players less than a certain threshold.. meaning they are basically free on average. This makes sense I think.

Then at some point average prices start to go up as i look at various metrics of player ability. But what is funny is what goes up is mostly the maximum price, and there is a surprisingly even distribution down to close to free. Its only for the exceptionally good players that you begin to see none of them being sold for small prices. So what this means is that the market for your average player worth buying is very inefficient. The market really hasn't decided what is a good price for this player, only that it won't pay more than X. and what X is goes up as the player's ability goes up. This makes sense to me as the funds of the teams who would want a player of skill X goes up as X goes up. meaning a D1 team doesn't really have a use for a player of skill X, but might of skill 2X and since d1 teams have much more money avail. that average price goes up.

We have considered putting in automated bidders that would provide some base level of support of players... its just that's a tricky thing to get right as we don't know how to price players correctly. Perhaps this will all improve as the market matures. I'm also not an economist so I don't know how unnatural or unhealthy this sort of behavior is. It seems to make sense to me that "day trading" would be a very profitable endeavor in this environment in that there are players being sold at less than the maximum they might go for quite often.. and by simply setting a minimum price and rolling the dice again they are likely to make a profit.

the diffrence here is:

drugdealing is strictly forbidden by law.

Daytrading is not...

Try to lift your perspective. What patjebono is saying that he thinks that DT should be prohibited, so he was not saying that he hinks daytraders are doing something illigal. Suppose that drug dealing was leagal, then you might like it or not, and if you do not you would probably like to change this. This is what patjebono is trying to do, but with DT.

You might agree with his oipinions or not, and in this case you don't, but discussions becomes a lot easier if you try to understand his arguments and discuss them instead.

I keep saying, it should be the seller who sets the prize. If he refuses to ask the money the player is worth, I don't see harm in buying him and selling him for more...

No one is saying that it isn't the sellers responsibility to set a high enough, except for possibly some daytraders that use the argument that daytrading secures some price stability (i.e. works as some kind of "price guaranty" for users).

Why do they not forbid it.......
maybe since we DO need daytraders.

I am pretty sure that the reason is that they are affraid of loosing daytrade users, and not that they see dayrading as such as something that is needed.

At the end of day daytrading does not add anything to the game except the movement of money from one team to another, thus creating poor and rich teams. Btw, this makes the argument of "price guaranty" even weaker as the only insentive for DT is to become richer, and this can only be achieved by making others poorer.

Edited by chespirito (12/19/2007 7:00:37 PM CET)

Last edited by chespirito at 12/19/2007 7:00:37 PM

although i am for maximum rosters and maximum trades let me forecast that this will lead to some REAL BARGAINS compared to today but as you said if the threshold is gradually rising then you will have to be training to keep pace with the threshold!

then your non-trainees will be worthless when you aim to upgrade (or am i factoring in too much threshold growth?)

look, don't get me wrong here.

I don't NEED daytrading, I don't promote it, I don't critisize it, yes I use it when it knocks on my door, no I don't hate people who DT, and I don't hate people who don't. I'm also not jealous of people who make more money than me using an aspect of the game. Yes somethimes I'm also to lazy to look for cheap players, yes I fired a couple of guys I bought that no one else wanted so I got stuck with them and payed them all between 20k and 50k salary just for charity before I finally fired them and I don't expect thanks from the managers I gave money to get rid of them, yes I made some profit from others that where wanted by others. No it's not realistic, but many other aspects in this game aren't either, therefor it's a game.

About the type: This is a manager game, and what's most important to managers....right, the money. (don't read other stuff is not important, I said MOST ;) )

I can't help it but I need to give another example: a DT-er find a very good player for 20k, and is able to sell him for 300k. Very lucky guy! But so so bad!!
then, an other manager gets a draft pick that easely gains him 600k, while most others need to be content with a combined 400k worth for all 3 picks, how fair is that?? he paid for scouting, o okay, so the others didn't? yes they did, or maybe they didn't, fact is, 1 team, or a few teams gain a great advantage over the other teams. the DT also paid for scouting to find this lucky buy, he paid with his time... I (and I think many others as well) just hope I get lucky as well ever so many times. In this game there are many ways in which to get lucky, everyone is free to try in ways he sees fit, and without breaking rules/cheating.

If every time when some team gets an advantage over an other team, it should be stopped, we should all start out with the same players, players should all have set prices, and if one would buy one knows how much he'd pay, and the seller would know what he'd get. Every team should get the same 3 youths in the draft. everyone should get the same revenue, the same scouting, the same coach, the same doctor and PR man, all would be the same...for everyone... now THAT would be a game!!
Hm, let's not forget, it is also not fair if the other team can win and you don't, so every game should be a draw also...
(before I get 100 reactions: this is not seriously what I think!)

Now I don't think I will post on here, since this discussion is clearly not going to stop. Many are against and demand forbidding it, and I don't believe they will quit their quest.
Rather, I think I already expressed my opinion, and tried to clarify I'm not free from DT-ing myself, but also don't promote it, and it's surely not my main task in this game.
I will see if it stays, or that they eventually will forbid it, and either way I will be pleased because either way it will be the same chances for everyone. Because the most important thing is that either everyone is free to do it, or nobody is, and so far I can't find any aspect in this game where this rule does not comply.

Quite obviously you have completely missed the point, and I see no point in trying you to understand it (even less to try to convince you to agree with it, but that has never been my task).

For some very strange reason you discuss issues like "I'm also not jealous of people who make more money...", " can't help it but I need to give another example: a DT-er find a very good player for 20k, and is able to sell him for 300k. ", and "if every time when some team gets an advantage...".

No one as I can see has said anything like that are jeelous of people making money, or that it is not ok to make money with todays rules, or that teams shouldn't be able to get advatages. Your arguments clearly show that you have not understood at all why some of us do not like DT. (If you can point at one single post that states any of the above reasons as reasons for limiting DT I appologize for my comment).

I am not saying that you have to agree to us, not at all, but it would be fair to try to read the arguments and reply to those instead of inventing arguments of your own and argue about those.

I remember when all the hoopla was against releasing the BOT players into the TL. People from the lower division were complaining that they can't buy the very good players and the BBs & GMs were saying that it's supposed to be that way. Only the teams from the top divisions should be able to afford and support those players. DTs on the other hand would be an exception to this. They can afford to buy these players because of their profits from other trades. So what will happen to the supposed talent gap?

I still believe that the game should be decided on the hardwood floor and not on the trading floor. success on the court should give you economic windfall and not the other way around.

i agree we don't want the possible profits from day trading to overwhelm other economic factors in the game.

we need a way to measure the economic impact of day trading in a quantified way. Show me a day trader that is an economic powerhouse that isn't in the top 2 divisions? I suspect that a team without some innate economic power can't really compete for players that are the most profitable for day trading (i'm imagining these are slightly not top tier players).

. Show me a day trader that is an economic powerhouse that isn't in the top 2 divisions?

(26249)
division III Germany
Total Sales: $352600
Total Purchases: $378300
Transfer Balance: $-25700
23 transfers since 15 Dec
11 players on TL

(26444)
division III Germany
Total Sales: $2015300
Total Purchases: $1948900
Transfer Balance: $66400
119 transfers since 15 Nov
6 players on TL

(51802)
division III Latvia
Total Sales: $1476601
Total Purchases: $1087500
Transfer Balance: $389101
61 transfers since 12 Nov

(75530)
div IV Spain
Total Sales: $1613800
Total Purchases: $963200
Transfer Balance: $650600
109 transfers since 30 Oct
5 players on TL

(60342)
div IV Argentina
Total Sales: $1156300
Total Purchases: $1055101
Transfer Balance: $101199
76 transfers since 21 Nov
11 players on TL

(92810)
div IV Nederland
Total Sales: $4152801
Total Purchases: $3945300
Transfer Balance: $207501
74 transfers since 8 Nov
11 players on TL

(45276)
division V Italy
Total Sales: $6159800
Total Purchases: $4205800
Transfer Balance: $1954000
64 transfers since 31 Oct
6 players currently on TL

(45388)
division V Italy
Total Sales: $6575800
Total Purchases: $4862700
Transfer Balance: $1713100
101 transfers since 28 Oct
9 players currently on TL

(78034)
div V Spain
Total Sales: $1828200
Total Purchases: $2049500
Transfer Balance: $-221300
109 transfers since 17 Nov
18 players currently on TL


Note: Not trying to call out any of these teams, but there is a bit of money being made in lower divisions. If the links are inappropriate, please let me know and I can edit them out.

Eh eh!

See these one:

Los Dragones (24274) III.4
Armani Jeans FC (46270) V.67
Pinilla CB (75677) IV.24
Floppzzys (92810) IV.7
Red Starz (99007) IV.10

There are other teams but a good chicken in waiting me on the table, I'll update later.

PS: Same that Dary, if something is not allowed I'll remove it ;)

Wow! The ones in Italy are crazy.

The point I was trying to make is that it IS possible to make an ungodly amount of money in a short time from a lower division. The two division V Italy teams with over $6M in bought players within a two month period are pretty astounding. I'm in division III and I can't imagine having that kind of money to spend.