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Well I don't really care for this conversation anymore but...

And then you go and write almost 400 words about it

I think you can't judge skills of NBA players in a vacuum. Just like you can't do it in BB. Also NBA's salaries aren't based on skills alone, while in BB they are. You probably don't believe Kobe Bryant is twice as better as James Harden at this point of his career, do you?

Like I said, there are no OD-only guys in NBA. You can build a OD=20 guy in BB with all other skills at 7. He would be a defensive nightmare, but offensively he can be stopped by a rookie. NBA player closest to that are Sefolosha and Tony Allen, and they don't have "7" in their offensive skills. Especially Sefolosha can hit a three here and there, or drive to the rim.

Monta Ellis, a streaky volume shooter with non-existing OD, gets 8M. Tony Allen gets a tad over 3M.

Dirk Nowitzki, a great scorer with no defense, gets 20M. Luc Mbah a Moute, a great wing defender with almost no offensive skills, gets 4.8M.

Steve Nash, who can't defend anyone if his life depends on it, gets 9M. Patrick Beverly, who is a defensive nightmare, gets 800k and starts from bench (and he can hit an occasional three).

NBA values offense over defense. Not because they think defense isn't important, but because people want to see "Lob-city", GSW's sweet shooting etc. If people wanted to watch Memphis-like games, NBA would turn into European basketball. But they don't. Playoffs of course are another thing entirely, but they are more of a basketball hardore fan thing. Regular season is for show and you don't need high-OD guys with nothing to do on offense for that.

Last edited by Koperboy at 10/10/2013 3:00:12 AM

I'm not picking up players who suit my argument. I can give you more examples if you want, but I need time.

Last three years I've been following Houston closely (ever since Dragic signed for them) and I've seen a fair share of games (not only highlights). I can guarantee you Beverly is one of top 1 on 1 defenders in the league based on last season only, and he's improved this year. In first preseason game against New Orleans, he had four steals in theee minutes...and he always pick-pocketed the same guy (JRue Holiday, the Allstar). Granted it's preseason only and some players don't try as hard as during regular season, but that 3 minute sequence were spectacular.

Nash and Nowitzki can "hide" within the defensive schemes. That's why they can earn that much money even though they don't play defense. Can you imagine a Top PG in BB with OD=8? You can't, but you can imagine it in NBA.

I think in their prime, they bring a lot more value per dollar they make.

That's exactly what I was telling you, but you wouldn't listen: salaries of NBA players are not based entirely on their skills, so you can't compare NBA players by salary. But you insisted (Iguodala makes more than Curry...), so I gave you three examples. But then you said I'm picking only comparisons that fit my argument . Would you make your mind already?

One of the reasons you can't compare NBA players' salaries is also the new CBA that forces players to take paycuts in order to compete for championship. Big 3 in Miami did it, Duncan did it last year, Nowitzki will do it next year, Ibaka did it two years ago. Kobe won't do it, so Lakers will remain irrelevant until he retires.

If you want more examples of bad defensive players that get paid or will get paid on their offensive skills almost exclusively, here's a short list off the top of my head:

Melo
Bargnani
Stoudemire
Irving
Brrok Lopez
Carlos Boozer
Steve Novak
Deron Williams
Kyle Korver
etc. etc.

Offense gets you more fans, a higher contract, all star selections, the spotlight...
When you add defense, you get championship(s).

That's why you can't say "OD only guys in NBA are worth more than OD only guys in BB". OD only guys in NBA don't exist!

One more thing...your statement "Bryant would eat harden for lunch in his prime" is just not true. I agree Bryant was better than Harden in his prime, but dude...Harden didn't even enter his prime yet. And in his first season as a starter, night in and night out guarded by team's best defenders, his stats were:
25.9 PPG, 4.9 RB, 5.8 AST, 1.8 STL, 44% for 2, 37% for 3, 85% FT.

Compare it with Bryant at age of 23:
25.2 PGG, 5.5 RB, 5.5 AST, 1.5 STL, 46% for 2, 25% for 3, 83% FT

and you can see that so far they are equal. Not to mention Bryant has always been the cancer for his team, while Harden is not. But we'll have to wait for Harden's career to finish to be able to compare these two players correctly.

#1: I joined becaue of Dragic, but I didn't change the team to Phoenix suns. Houston intrigued me and I stayed despite Dragic leaving.

#2: Sorry I forgot to respond to this earlier. I said Paul George got payed because of his defense (he's an elite wing defender), but not entirely: much of his contract is based on his potential (he's still young). Same as Harden who got maximum contract without starting one game for OKC until that point.

You list several people as bad defenders (like you did with Paul George) who are NOT bad defenders.

We dealt with Paul George. Now who else falls into "several people" category? Btw, "bad" defender and "not willing to play defense" is same in my book. Kobe was great defender when he tried, but last few seasons he's just been a bad defender. Same for Harden - in Finals two years ago he even defended LeBron and did a decent job, but in Houston he concentrated on offense only and was a black hole in defense.

There are very few two-way players. Indiana hopes Paul George joins a vey short list of players like LeBron and Durant (and Wade before he started declining), who are true two-way players, but he has to work at his offense. One of best two-way players...MJ when he committed to defense (and won several DPOY awards), Duncan, Olajuwon.

Last edited by Koperboy at 10/10/2013 5:27:56 AM

Oh my god, man...you are reading into my posts whatever you want to read, right?

If Kobe is such a great teammate, than why didn't Shaq and Howard stayed in LA? Why doesn't he take a paycut to win a championship? Who is responsible for colapse against Detroit Pistons in the finals? Shaq went to Miami, won a championship. Howard went to Houston - probably won't win a champinship, at least not this year, but is positioned much better than Lakers are at the moment. Etc. etc.

NBA all teams, DPOY, Coach of the year...you should know better than me that's pretty irrelevant. George Karl coach of the year? Pff, come on. At least Popovich and Thibodeau deserved that award more. Stats are similar, and Houston made the playoffs solely on Harden's shoulders. Who did he have to work with? Lin coming off an injury, offensive-challenged Asik, 2nd round pick Parsons (although he is outplaying his contract like a madman) and Patterson for PF (after he was traded, they had rookies at PF spot). And he didn't have any training camp to get to know his team, started for first time in his career...pretty good if you ask me. He probably won't surpass Kobe either in championships or in statistics, but he may enter Top5 SGs ever if he stays in this path.

I didn't say Harden was top defensive player, you made that up (like 80% of your post). I said he was a good defender.

I didn't say Paul George is bad defender, I said he's an elite defender with a decent offensive game.

Bazemore, Beverly...those are defensive specialists and energy guys who enter the game from bench and have low minutes with high impact on the game. Of course they won't ever be considered for top defensive teams if they have limited minutes. But that doesn't mean they are bad defenders.

everal people in the NBa are better defender's than Harden

Again, I didn't say that. You made that up.

Several people are better scorers.

Bryant, Durant, Melo and LeBron. That's "several" to you?

But challenging Kobe and Michael Jordan for best SG in history list...I think not.

Again...didn't say that. You made that up.

If you want to have a conversation, don't go making up stuff.

I'm not an english native speaker, but even I know "several" depends on context. "Several miles" might differ between a sailor and a marathon runner, don't you think? So in a 450 player league, "several" should be at least 10, if not more. Instead it's four. Great nitpicking, dude!

Kobe is one of the greatest players (I didn't deny that, so you're making stuff up again), placed perfectly into the league (after MJ left the game so he couldn't bother him - ask Malone and Barkley) and into the richest franchise in NBA who couldn't care less if it goes over the cap. He was constantly putting up huge numbers. Last year he was one of the best players in the league at age of 33 IIRC. Lakers could buy virutally anyone outside of Duncan and few other players.

So...team with most money, best player in the game at that time, best coach and brightest lights in the whole USA. In 17y career, he wins...5 rings. Put MJ, Magic or Bird in his place and imagine what could happen. And THAT'S what bothers me with Kobe. Unfulfilled potential!
Nobody can argue that 5 rings is crap. 5 rings means greatness. But imagine if Jordan won "only" 2-3 rings despite being so dominant. Would you still call him GOAT?

(whilst giving him NO credit for their successes).

That's another thing you made up. Dude, your reading comprehension seriously sucks.

that Westbrook is the better player and scorer.

Again taken out of context. Defenses have to guard Durant first and then comes Westbrook. Who is first target of all defenses in Houston? How would Westbrook fare in Harden's spot?

I agree maybe Curry could be in front of Harden, but let's see first how that ankle holds up, shall we? Because if he can get one outstanding season each three years, that doesn't cut it for me.

In the end, let me be clear all that I write are my OPINIONS and not FACTS. You are telling me I know nothing about Kobe because I wasn't there, I wasn't his teammate...hey, neither were you, so how can you say he is a great team player? For every example you show me I can show you two or three.