BuzzerBeater Forums

There are a handful of teams who need to make a guy as good as possible in the shortest amount of time. For those people, and that includes me as i have a level 5 myself, it is completely worth it to get that extra distance out of their development immediately so that they may be fully completed with training within 4.5 seasons instead of 5.33 seasons.

For any american D.V team to have one would be pretty foolish in my view. The chances that they will be capable of understanding development immediately, the chances that they will be able to follow W_alloy and promote up the divisions quickly is also extremely unlikely.

If you are new and don't know much about the game yet, then buying a trainer level 5 or great is foolish. If you completely understand training and require a better player faster and have the money to make it an intelligent move, then you know enough about the game for it to no longer be foolish. That would be my statement on the levels of training on their own.

I really don't think that it's simply a case of stating that a L5/6/7 is a "waste of money", nor asserting that someone is foolish for buying one. Because regardless of diminishing returns, it still remains a fact that a Level 5 trainer is better than a Level 4, and so on... stating the obvious I guess, but some people seem to be putting out a blanket statement that "more than a level 4 is not worth it". Not a fact.

There is enough data on the affects of higher level trainers that one can objectively state with a high degree of certainty whether or not a higher level trainer is worth it in a given situation. If analysis says it's close there is some wiggle room but in most cases the analysis does not say it is close.

The key here is: is it financially viable for your team?
For me, absolutely. I have a L6 trainer - have had for quite a while. For me, that's a reasonable cost. There are others in the JBBL who swear by L7. And if I could afford it, then I'd probably get one too.
For my trainees (my two key guys I am training for *my* team, not to sell), I want to get them to the point I envisage. For me: a L4 or even L5 trainer may well "not be worth it".

Firstly, I think you will agree that teams in top leagues have a very different set of circumstances than most teams looking for help on these boards, circumstances which are extremely important when picking out a trainer.

Secondly, how do you know that a level 6 trainer is worth it for you? One needs to perform analysis examining marginal cost and marginal benefit to be able to speak with any certainty on the matter. Analysis using dollar values still apply to trainees that are being kept because of opportunity cost, although some small adjustments may need to be made (merch bonus for home brews, transfer fees, etc). The exception is when a user has a strong subjective preference to just train their own player to be as good as possible regardless of cost, which many people seem to have. But such subjective preferences can be used to justify absolutely anything and thus fall outside the bounds of a strategy discussion.

Going from a level 5 to level 6 trainer costs maybe 30k/week? (rough estimate). So that's about 400k per season. The benefit is around 4%, which means one extra pop for every 25 you are getting. If you get 25 pops in a season, that means you are paying 400k per extra pop. Even if you were getting 50 pops in a season the average extra pop would have to be worth 200k to you for this to be a good deal. This would only be true if you were adding 10 million in value each season via training. 200k * 50 = 400k *25 = 10 million.

Last edited by w_alloy at 1/17/2013 4:36:12 PM

Basically the designers messed up when balancing trainers. Everyone just assumes that the balance is correct. I think the math and the training data shows extremely clearly that this is the case.

I find it kind of amazing that I haven't been able to convince more people of this given how bullet-proof the math is. If you disagree, tell me where I messed up.

Going from a level 5 to level 6 trainer costs maybe 30k/week? (rough estimate). So that's about 400k per season. The benefit is around 4%, which means one extra pop for every 25 you are getting. If you get 25 pops in a season, that means you are paying 400k per extra pop. Even if you were getting 50 pops in a season the average extra pop would have to be worth 200k to you for this to be a good deal. This would only be true if you were adding 10 million in value each season via training. 200k * 50 = 400k *25 = 10 million.

just going from here....

10 million in value each season... yes, probably not happening... Yes, you only get the 1 extra pop, but what about extra sublevel effects too that didn't quite pop?

Also, mostly everyone single position trains for the obvious reason of, it trains faster, no?
Have studies/research been done with the level 6 and level 7 trainers, vs the others in 2 position? or even 3 position training?

I mean, yeah it'd be an expensive research project etc for that... but what if, thats why they're knowning there and not changed much? What if having a lvl 7 trainer makes it worthwhile to do something "crazy" such as, SB training for sf/pf/c ?

Just a unfounded theory.

Last edited by LBJisaCancer at 1/17/2013 5:12:46 PM

First of all, I admire the amount of effort and the very nature of your mathematical analysis. It's to be commended and a tool that many can use to help them make decisions.

There is enough data on the affects of higher level trainers that one can objectively state with a high degree of certainty whether or not a higher level trainer is worth it in a given situation. If analysis says it's close there is some wiggle room but in most cases the analysis does not say it is close.

Except that's not what I said.
I stated that there is no hard and fast "rule" for each and every team. No blanket generalization that's true for everyone. I do agree that for the vast majority of teams starting in a low div, this may well be a universal truth.

Firstly, I think you will agree that teams in top leagues have a very different set of circumstances than most teams looking for help on these boards, circumstances which are extremely important when picking out a trainer.

Absolutely. Completely concur. However... what's true for a US user starting out in Div V, doesn't remain the aforementioned universal truth for every new player to the game. Smaller nations operate under a different set of conditions. Starting in Div II in a nation is a fairly different game of BB to starting out in Div V (and something I think the game messes up completely... but that's another story I guess).

Secondly, how do you know that a level 6 trainer is worth it for you?

Well... starting backwards (and speaking for my situation - or thereabouts) - my L6 trainer costs me 30k a week. I guess your math holds true there as I paid 500k for him - so rather than a L5 guy at 20-30k costing 100k, I paid more at the outset.
But to be competitive in the JBBL, I am going to need a very high quality player at the 3 and 4 slot. To buy a player of that ilk it's going to cost me north of 3million. Your math is excellent, and an excellent guide for those starting out as to figure out what they need... but often the pricing and availability of players at the top end doesn't follow the same logic (unfortunately). The market pays what the market will bear, and if the market is playing insanely high (and oft-feeling-inflated) prices for players, then that's what the market value is.
Or I could build them. In building them, I'm not creating a player for sale - and it becomes slightly harder to put a monetary value on them as I'm not really willing to test it out (tho' hazarding a guess I think my 22yo and 23yo trainees would both sell for the same "north of 3 million"). My 22yo made the HK U21 team, and my 23yo played on the Nippon U21 team, and is in his second season of the NT. And therein lies something crucial for the game element... for me (and I completely understand that the vast majority of users don't fall within those parameters. But some might).

Japan's a small nation. The BB number is "37 users". I expect that the truth is somewhat smaller... and if we're measuring truly active members, then it's probably closer to perhaps 20, maybe less. And those with the desire to build players that will help the NT? I'd guess fewer than 12.
For my version of "enjoying BuzzerBeater as a game" involves success for my nation, and I'm pretty keen on being a part of it. For a small nation to experience any variety of success, there have to be people willing to do 'a little more'. I'm not entirely sure that this can be quantified by an equation.

But such subjective preferences can be used to justify absolutely anything and thus fall outside the bounds of a strategy discussion.

That comes across as so summarily dismissive, and I'm sure that's not your intent - you've been so helpful to many.

Last edited by malice at 1/17/2013 7:56:35 PM

10 million in value each season... yes, probably not happening... Yes, you only get the 1 extra pop, but what about extra sublevel effects too that didn't quite pop?

The one extra pop is including sub-levels; it's the expected value of pops (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value ). Another way to get the 10 million value is that if 4% is worth 400k, 100% is worth (100/4) * 400k = 10 mil.

I do agree that for the vast majority of teams starting in a low div, this may well be a universal truth.

This was my point... I probably should have been more direct with it. I just don't see how it's possible for a level 5 trainer to be worth it for a D4/5 team unless they are really an NBBA team that has decided to triple demote, and a level 4 trainer is pretty much the same story. I have two trainees worth around a million each and a lvl 4 trainer isn't even close to worth it for me.

But to be competitive in the JBBL, I am going to need a very high quality player at the 3 and 4 slot. <next 2 paragraphs snipped for space>

This is a good point that the concept of the value of players is less meaningful at higher levels. An extreme example would be some SF with a ludicrously efficient build and the most total SP of any player ever. This player is basically never worth selling so in a sense he is priceless.

My counter argument is that A) it is a very tiny percent of users who have these irreplaceable players, $4 million player value after a high draft value and 3 seasons of training is a long way off from 10 mil training value added in a season C) one can find some ridiculously good builds on the TL if one has the cash and the patience.

For my version of "enjoying BuzzerBeater as a game" involves success for my nation, and I'm pretty keen on being a part of it. For a small nation to experience any variety of success, there have to be people willing to do 'a little more'. I'm not entirely sure that this can be quantified by an equation.

I am completely in agreement with you about this. It seems a level 6 trainer probably is "worth it" for you for this reason.

That comes across as so summarily dismissive, and I'm sure that's not your intent - you've been so helpful to many.

I actually did mean it pretty dismissively; I am sometimes a dick on the internet. I appreciate you confronting me so politely. The reason I felt like being a dick about this is I have had this conversation a number of times on this board where I "prove" that the higher level trainers are a mistake in the context of giving noobs advice and my sparring partners retreat to this fortress of preference which is frustratingly unassailable by my logic.

Level 3. According to my maths levels 2 and 3 should be really close in net value to me.

Last edited by w_alloy at 1/17/2013 9:20:08 PM

I actually did mean it pretty dismissively; I am sometimes a dick on the internet. I appreciate you confronting me so politely. The reason I felt like being a dick about this is I have had this conversation a number of times on this board where I "prove" that the higher level trainers are a mistake in the context of giving noobs advice and my sparring partners retreat to this fortress of preference which is frustratingly unassailable by my logic.

Hahaha... that made me smile. A rarity where someone would be both cognizance of that, and willing to admit to it.
Thanks for your brazen honesty, and willingness to understand.

With smaller nations, starting at DII is both a boon and a bane. A boon because the money flows in fairly quickly, a bane as their tends to be a logjam at the top of your division. Promotion into whatever Div I exists is difficult, as there's only one division to promote into. I get that being in a big nation has it's pitfalls as well (much smaller $$$ to work with for a start)... and I suspect that there's probably not as much 'personal ownership' of the NT as there is with smaller nations.

Which leads me to players...
For me, Katsurou Matsumoto (21305788), is verging on being "that guy". I acquired him coming up on 4 seasons ago, and he had been heavily focused towards his primaries. At the expense of team success, I've built his secondaries up - not to where I want him to be, but he's getting closer. He has a chance to be a pretty special player within our nation, and it would be difficult for me to put an accurate monetary value on him.

Speaking of which... that's another thing smaller nations face: often, prices for smaller nation players - at the elite level - are grossly inflated. I guess another of the vagaries of the market, huh? "Supply and demand"... add to that, there seems to be a bit of a fascination for "Japanese players" (especially in Europe. Don't ask me why, I don't understand it). Frustrating when trying to increase the number of homegrown players, lemme tell you!

I would argue that a player doesn't have to be near-perfect (or necessarily an SF!) to be verging on being priceless for a team. K-Mat's pretty much that for me. I'd be extremely foolish to bail on him - given how rare well-constructed bigs are - in particular within my nation (he is the best big of value that I have seen on the market for my nation since I've been playing), or what price they command. Especially given that he's Japanese, playing for a Japanese team.

Now... with regards to AleksandarPMF, I agree that starting out he should start with a lower level trainer, but would caution him to have an open mind to upgrading that at some point in the future - dependent on his experiences within his nation (Montenegro). It's nowhere near as small as Japan, but significantly smaller than the US. It'll depend on the path he chooses to take.