BuzzerBeater Forums

First of all, I have to thank everyone who voted and/or contributed to the discussion. We are learning as we go and from this initiative, we have already learnt a lot.

On the other hand, I have a couple of remarks. Seems like some users voted and posted their opinions before they even read the initial post. This is somewhat a disappointment, but I guess an expected one. We cannot force everyone to read each post, but reading the initial one should be a prerequisite for contribution.

Furthermore, some users seem to lose focus and try to push other unrelated suggestions or comments here, while others tend to be a little rude. I would like to politely ask everyone to keep on topic and keep their cool. This is a thread intended to improve the game, but we can only do it if we keep the discussion civil and efficient.

I cannot answer most of the questions raised here, nor is that the intention of the thread. It's intention is to provide us, the BBs, with some answers and it's doing that nicely. We now have a better picture about the possible flaws and solutions for the idea, even though the main question (should we develop it at all) is still far from getting a definite answer.

However, there are two prevailing alternate ideas that seem to dominate the discussion so I believe it's only fair to address them both:
1. Utopia league: While this would address some of the problems, it would also raise others, while not helping with some of the issues that the initial suggestion takes care of. It's a valid proposition and should be considered in the conclusion.
2. A new BB server: This really has nothing to do with the second team idea as suggested. This solution proposes a new BB universe, unrelated to BB as we know it, while we're trying to find ideas for this one. Therefore, this is also considered but only as a completely separate suggestion.

I should point out another thing: most people seem to see this idea as a way of "saving" BB, some desperate attempt to keep it afloat financially. This is just not true. While we would love to grow, both in user numbers and income, we are not going to close up shop anytime soon. On a contrary, I personally believe there are many years (not just BB seasons) ahead of us, regardless of the implementation of the 2nd team idea. We will continue to develop the game during that time, and you never know, we might even pull a couple of nice surprises which could turn things around for us. I'm an optimist and I think that the positive response to our work that surfaced in the community lately can translate into good times for BB in the future.

Why then do we insist on keeping the 2nd team idea a Supporter feature? Well, as redcped already stated: "People with investments in the game are much less likely to cheat, because they have something much more to lose if they get caught.". This is the key that keeps people from cheating: personal investments and responsibility, and that's why we initially decided that we need to make this a Supporter feature. Of course, we are not denying that the extra income wouldn't be a nice addition. This also means we'd even consider allowing users to buy this feature without the Supporter package (the details don't have to be decided right away, even though it would be cheaper than buying Supporter, of course).

There are other specifics we can change about the idea, as I stated in the initial post, so please, don't let any one of them sway you from voting one way or another, as your vote should represent the general support for the idea even though if you don't like all of the mentioned rules and restrictions. We can work on those, and this discussion is aimed at doing exactly that.

The response to the initiative is a very pleasant surprise, almost overwhelmingly so. Whatever the outcome, I believe the goal to get the community more involved in the developmental decision process has been a big success. Thank you all for reading and contributing!

It`s not an advantage because we don´t get anything from it. It is usefull only to try different tactics! So I think it is rubbish because we don´t get any practicetime for our players... Second would nice and more even then if you can get practicetime to youngsters!

With 2nd team feature BB will get more supporters --> more money --> more development power --> better game for everyone and not just supporters.

So this feature could have a very positive impact on BB - basically we're paying for something it might provide also non-payers like YOU with a better game - yet you are complaining. How can you be so short-sighted?

this is laughable. BB "gives" us something, just so they can make sure users don't stop paying supporter fees.

Last edited by thylacine at 1/13/2014 8:21:48 AM

Why then do we insist on keeping the 2nd team idea a Supporter feature? Well, as redcped already stated: "People with investments in the game are much less likely to cheat, because they have something much more to lose if they get caught.". This is the key that keeps people from cheating: personal investments and responsibility, and that's why we initially decided that we need to make this a Supporter feature. Of course, we are not denying that the extra income wouldn't be a nice addition. This also means we'd even consider allowing users to buy this feature without the Supporter package (the details don't have to be decided right away, even though it would be cheaper than buying Supporter, of course).

Sorry Marin, where do you get this idea from? There are a lot of people that like to buy stuff on online games and then cheat when they have to play online games(think about what happen in a ton of fps games and multiplayer battle games around the web)
Spend money on a game =/= People that are much less likely to cheat. Just to clarify that

The fact that you BBs opened the poll to involve the whole community is a great thing, imho

Reading what people are saying i think there are not many knowlege about economy...
Second team will be bad to get new users, a new user will see how compete against good and experience managers, and leave the game... The income in a net game are supporter but also banners... the banners pay about traffic... less users, more teams and more supporters... Just get a closed game, just for a few long time managers... is really this the game we want??? Or we are just thinking in the pros for ourselves??

Also, this second team, open the door against fair play... many posibilitis to scammers.

When you need to make a lot of loyal rules, it means that something is wrong about it.

First of all, i would like to highlight the fact that BBs are here, communicating their thoughts, putting things on the table, discussing ideas with the community.
The EGM system works well in that direction and it was obvious well before it was announced. Great move and excellent choice of individuals.

As for the topic of discussion, for the time being, im against it, for reasons that don't even reach the matter of specific pros and cons, should such an idea be implemented.

We're talking about a drastic, not turning back move here. Once it's started you can't say after two seasons, it doesn't work, we dish it.
A move that admittedly is connected directly with the financial aspect of BB survival and growth too.

Trying to examine it from a BBs' point of view, one thought comes straight to mind.

We're trying to squeeze out more supporter subsciptions from a declining userbase, instead of primarily trying to get the user numbers back up and statistically and smoothly absorb subscriptions from the additional users, with the encouragement of supporter goodies.

There wouldn't be a problem, trying to achieve both goals, as long as decisions on one front are compatible with the other.

In my opinion, such an implementation would harm the goal of new user subscriptions.
This is a not a "new-user friendly" thing.
New users, already have a lot in their hands, when joining the game. Certain aspects that differ from real basketball teams management and ultimately a game where costly mistakes are inevitable at first and lots of reading is required.
Altough, personally speaking, this is part of the game's beauty, it still remains a fact.
A fact that is sompensated though, by the leagues' structure and their progressing difficulty, starting at a level that allows for mistakes and "rewards" you with easy promotion from the lowest country division.

If we flood the lower country divisions with experienced managers and make it even disappointing for new managers, im afraid it will cost dearly.
People join in, test the waters and see whether they like the game and its structure, in order to decide whether, finances aside, they will decide to become supporters.
I have no doubt in my mind that in case we get(somehow) a significant amount of new users joining, they will be buying, percentage wise, way fewer supporter packages, that what is considered normal so far.


In all,

-personally i would love such an implementation
-as a member of the community, i would have strong objections, unless at least "fair play" issues are addressed with more conviction
-as a "guest" in a BB's board of directors meeting, discussing the proposal, i would be voting firmly against the motion.



Last edited by maddoghellas at 1/13/2014 7:26:57 AM

Here are some of the mentioned issues (that mostly deal with cheating) and possible solutions. This is not a complete list, just a list of possible solutions to issues that seem to bother most managers at this moment. There can be some better new ones added in the future.

Issues and possible solutions:
1. draft pick ordering enables second teams to tank and hog all the best trainees
- give draft priority to local teams
2. secondary team used to overbid primary teams leaguemates (and the other way around) in the transfer market
- make that illegal and impossible to do
3. secondary team used to overbid primary teams bad bids (and the other way around)
- make that illegal and impossible to do
4. secondary team used to buy and retire possible NT players
- manually transfer list the intentionally fired players which weren't free transfered automatically, just like we do now

Possible new rules:
12. New Manager Bonus rule. Secondary teams do not get the 4 initial weekly $50 000 bonuses. The experience acquired by the managers in their primary teams should compensate for that.

As a supporter, I say a big NO to this idea.

Thanks alot for your post Marin. All your points seem reasonable to me!