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so, why we have to play an economic game and not a basketball game??

Because this is not a basketball arcade game -- it's a management game. And the economic aspect is part of the management process.

yes, part of the management, not the only part...

actually it seems we must be economist....

It's not the only part. Being able to maintain healthy team economy doesn't mean you know how to win a BB game.

but, if for each team born after season 4 win means to make bankrupt, then economy is the only part of management...

if there're ways to win with a good economy and without tanking, please, explain me...I'm listening...

Last edited by zecchin at 6/4/2012 10:30:31 PM

So, what you are saying is: Every team in Italy is playing in the minus season after season?
This season, currently the oldest team in Estonia finally made a mistake. Was constantly in the minus and sold a player too late. Doesn't that mean the newcomers are overtaking the old managers. This game is about getting better players/result while spending less money. Yes it's mostly a numbers game, but knowing which players/skills you need/aford for certain spots while not bankrupting yourself is the key.
It's a game of patience. You are not playing against USA divIII or Eesti divIII. You are playing in your country, more importantly in your league. The only thing you need to focus on is beating your direct opponents.
You are saying you can't go into the market without selling a player. Who can? If everyone else in your league is also near the salary cap, they also can't really go guns blazing spending. Adding money to teams will just "raise the salary cap", teams will spend that money and you will be in the same situation again. So it's pointless to just keep raising the cap to infinity.
This game takes time, I was stuck in divII for 8 seasons, before I promoted, but I always had a smaller total player salary than other teams, even when I promoted, because I took the time to actually build my team. Obviously you can't win if you go shopping emotionally and getting the first guy you see on the transfer list, or buy a player who's name you like. There are 16 managers in a league, there can be only one winner and 15 losers...

I see you team...you are in playoff zone in III with a roster that any single team of my old IV division can beat, but take my same tv contract...thank of that you have a 12k arena in 5 season of game...in italy is impossible that...
don't let me laugh...please...

If you look at salaries alone, sure, my team is overmatched - there are only three teams in the series paying less for their top five than me, and six paying less for their top 8 and top 10. Luckily for me, the game is about more than which players on the court have higher salaries.

As for my arena, the reason it's to 12k already is that I have spent more money on expanding the arena than I have on the transfer market. Not symbolically, literally; my expansions total $3.565M, while my transfers are under $3.4M. My arena was already almost 12k when I promoted to III, so it's not like I've been sitting here and eating up TV revenue and just now building the arena.

he has a 200k roster, but he's in III, so he don't take 70k tv contract, because there's a limit, and not also 104k, because his league is not better than mine...but if he take 80/85k are enough, because he's in III so he has much fans, and he can play for promotion with a positve weekly...

The TV contract is $97646. I'm not going to be playing for promotion, though - I may make the playoffs as the #3 or likely #4, but I am not the best team in my conference and beside this I am still playing big men as PG for training again this season.

STAY CLEAR ! VERY LONG READ ! DANGEROUS FOR YOUR HEALTH !

Hem... Economy...

Let's have a look...

Hem... Yeah...
I will talk only about one of the points. This one !

other considerations about bad economy management are these:

1) At the end of last season, there was not a single team who joined later than season-4, on the first division of - Frace and Spain.

Because it often comes back. Not only for those two countries but other large ones too.

So... France ! Hey, I know France !

Look ! Current France's D.II conference leaders :
(I'll use blue/red for each conference so that everyone understands since translations are sometimes very different from a language to another)

II.1 blue : (36003) joined s6. Good !
II.1 red : (27211) joined s10 ! Wow ! This guy is really good !
II.2 blue : (84901) joined s11 ! OMG ! Ok, don't be fooled, he used to have a top league team but started over. So he already knew the game stuff, it makes it less impressive, right ? It's only mildly impressive in fact, or rather impressive or whatever. Go Ducks !
II.3 blue : (87142) joined s8. Well, he is not actually leading the conference, he's tied 4-1 to a GM's team but since GM's teams use the secret winning script, he is almost a leader, a semi-leader. Don't get it wrong GM, it's for the sake of the study ;)
II.3 red : (85064) joined s9. Hell, how many of them are they ?
II.4 blue : (27195) joined s8. *sigh* I remember when he promoted to my league from D.IV. Oh memories ! Hi friend !

So 5 out of 8 conference leaders are "much younger than season 4". They are not champions yet but it's looking good for younger teams.
(I listed 6 teams but I reckon I made up one, GMs don't have a script and it's forbidden to talk about this script.)

Things are changing ! Thanks to the changes to the market and the maturation of a sufficient pool of players (fully trained).
And this argument that old teams can't be beaten because of the market has to be dropped.

TL market levels aren't the most important, what is important is to avoid galloping inflation. Stability is good. The nostalgics of the old market are probably more nostalgic of the inflation and don't see the big picture, that this inflation was ruining the game for newer teams.

Let me remind only one of the effects of the BB inflationnist market.

A top league team buys a 22 yo player for 2M.
Because the market has risen, by his 25 yo, the player is worth 3M.
Hey, nice trade for the top league team, it has used a player and with little training, it makes money on him.

The top league team sells him and buys a new 22 yo player for 3M.
Because the market has risen, by his 25 yo, the player is worth 4M.
Hey, nice trade blablablablabla

The top...... and.... 22..... 4M.
B.c..s. ... .............., ... 25......., ........5M
H.............................

22 5M
25 6M
22 6M....
in an endless cycle !

***DANGER***
Noise hazard area

I can link to several players who sold for 10M+ and I think I remember one who went for 20M.
So teams were getting richer doing almost nothing, simply because the market was rising and their roster value was increasing. They didn't have to trade smartly, prices were rising by themselves !
Top teams had the best growth because they had the best roster that only them could afford. Money was never a problem as long as the market was rising. Their economic power would have lasted forever in an inflationnist market.

New teams start with 300k in cash and a roster that is worth a few hundreds k maximum.
If top teams have rosters worth 1OOM and constantly rising, how long for new teams to catch up stuck in D.V or D.VI like in Spain at some point ? Hundreds of seasons ? It's a marathon but newcomers probably want to be able to finish the race before they need a wheelchair IRL.

Prices levels are not too important. Let's say prices suddendly double. There will be a period of adjustment, lower leagues will suffer the most. After a couple of seasons, almost nothing will have changed. Prices will be higher but the equilibrium would remain the same because a team total salaries is somewhat soft capped at each league level and the saved money is only used to buy and sell players. If we had to use the product of a player's sell to buy bread and milk then yes, the falling market would be a big problem if bread and milk prices stayed high. But we only buy/sell players, if you can only sell for low, you can buy for low too.

Last edited by Manouche at 6/5/2012 1:42:16 PM

but you have to count how many teams of II next season can play well in first division...or they tanking and will be relegated??
because many managers can be promoted fastly spending much money for reach the limit, but after they can't stay in firts division...

I see you team...you are in playoff zone in III with a roster that any single team of my old IV division can beat, but take my same tv contract...thank of that you have a 12k arena in 5 season of game...in italy is impossible that...
don't let me laugh...please...

If you look at salaries alone, sure, my team is overmatched - there are only three teams in the series paying less for their top five than me, and six paying less for their top 8 and top 10. Luckily for me, the game is about more than which players on the court have higher salaries.

As for my arena, the reason it's to 12k already is that I have spent more money on expanding the arena than I have on the transfer market. Not symbolically, literally; my expansions total $3.565M, while my transfers are under $3.4M. My arena was already almost 12k when I promoted to III, so it's not like I've been sitting here and eating up TV revenue and just now building the arena.

after first 4 season I have a 10k arena, because I spent my money on it...but I have to stay in V division, because I coundn't spend much money for players, because I haven't that...you, after 5 seasons, have a 12k arena and have a -2M transfer balance, because you can be promoted spending less than me on salaries, depending of competitiveness of your leagues...

We can't speculate on that, future will tell. I believe some of them will play well, they know the step is high and try to prepare for it. They may get relegated at first and bounce back.

What I say is that there are seriously competitive teams in II much younger than before. It is new. I don't think it could have happened before, not to that extent.

What is new too is that top league teams have money problems :)
This is very new, it's a such a problem that they tank ! Many teams don't tank to win later but simply to survive.
Now mistakes cost them. Before, no mistake could be made that wasn't easily recovered from.
Several strong teams in the first 3 divisions have suddenly run out of steam financially and are in free fall now. It certainly has happened in Italy too.

D.III also has "young teams" rapidly rising. They are patient and not trying to rise too fast but they rise steadily.
They joined s12, 13, 14, 15 ! I am confident they will make it to D.II in a few seasons. Reaching D.I is super selective, they won't all make it and it is how it should be, super selective.

New teams now stand a chance, they were doomed to struggle before.

There are still some problems with the economy but it's not the market.

but the problem is the much attention we have to spend on economic management...I know that on a managerial game is important (I play several other managerial online game), but not at this level...

many people tanking, and BBs can't punish them, because in France or Italy is necessary to survive in high divisions...however they can give advantages to reach playoffs, and not to be 5th or be relegated...maybe prizes for playoff spots could be a solution for make better reach playoffs and not tanking...
but if they don't insert money in game, there will be always the same problems...

look at Spain, they had 5 season ago over 5k users, now 3k...because the are lame of that...