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a view from the peanut gallery:
i made a decision some time ago to train balanced players for a balanced team...

one consequence of all this is that i don't see how i could be in a position to train a player for the U21 team... i am trying to develop an entire squad; the training necessary to develop a player to extraordinary levels before 21 i simply will not do. it is possible, i am suggesting, many other managers may be thinking along these lines.

I've pretty much come to the same conclusion: if I want to draft/train my players for the long-term in the balanced way that I think will be best for own team, it's hard to see how it will be possible for me to get any of my guys up to the level of a u21 player.

Even after I build a solid base of players and move from 2 position to 1 position training eventually, I still have a hard time envisioning being able to build a guard for example with 14-15 JS and OD while also getting secondary and inside skills up to the levels I think are important. I remember reading a post somewhere by someone that basically said u21 is all about the primary skills and I think I would agree, but it seems like that might mean that u21 is a difficult nut to crack for teams focused on making balanced players their priority.

I personally believe that my best chance of getting anybody on the u21 team will end up being 18yr olds drafted as C/PF or PG/SG who end up being classified as SFs by their 21st year due to a stronger focus on their secondary skill development in the early years. So they would move along their multi-season training arc from:

18yr-->21yr-->24+yr
Guard-->SF-->Guard
Big--> SF --> Big

Which may not be such a bad thing; balanced trainers still have a opportunity to get people on the u21 team, and the u21 team gets a larger selection of more balanced SFs. But I would agree with your assessment that it seems tough to reach the primary benchmarks you need as a guard/center while also adding something to the secondary skills, all in four seasons.

I agree I'm willing to bet most of the top countries have more "farm" teams than we do that focus on single-position training some monsters.

However, I drafted Dan Billingsley 6 seasons ago and double-position trained him onto the U21 and NT squads while training 4 others at the same time, so it IS possible. Granted, he's not a dominant player on the world stage like the single-position guys, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

You seem to have taken offense at my comments. I did not mean to indicate that you have not been an extremely active and helpful mentor. You have. You were one of the few people who participated in the mentoring threads and then the "closer look at 1 team" thread in a positive manner on a regular basis.

However, the public information on what it takes to be an u21 player is lacking. Despite having learned quite a bit from you (as I mentioned above) regarding how to run a club team. I am no farther along in understanding what it is that the u21 team wants out of its players than I was 3 seasons ago. Do I need to be spoon fed? No. Do the forum users needs some form of general guideline? Absolutely. Is it your job to provide that guideline? If you're the u21 coach, you bet it is.

I'm not talking about making distinctions between player A and B. I'm saying generic stuff, such as "a guy on the tracking list at PG should have a minimum of "wondrous JS by age 19" but he also needs X handling, Y passing and the u21 doesn't want a player who isn't at least Z in Free Throws or stamina, etc etc.

I'm not trying to dictated what those parameters should be as I'm clearly telling you I have no idea what the parameters are.

To say that I have been lazy is a shortcut and unfairly dismissive. You will have to forgive me if I don't want log into yet another website to find out basic guidelines for the NT/u21 teams. You call that lazy, so be it. There may come a time where I'm interested enough to log into the offsite forum but that time is not now. In the meantime, you're losing lots of prospects on teams just like mine because the word isn't out there to the general public on what skills are valued at what levels for what positions on the u21 team and therefore there are lots of managers who are training guys with real potential ineffectively by u21 standards.

For example, in HT if a player came out with Head, Solid winger and solid playmaking, we would want him trained in playmaking but if the same skilled player had Quick. You can be darn sure, I'd do what I could to get him a winger trainer.

I'm rambling now and this very well could be an apples and oranges comparison. I just know that I'm lost in BB when it comes to the u21 and I'm willing to bet that a lot of other users are too. if you care to shed some light, great. If I'm just way off track, I can live with that too. Rest assured, I'm not asking because I'm being lazy. I'm asking because I want to know.

EDIT: A thought occurred to me that perhaps this is more like footstar.org where there are more skills to train than in HT. Even still, my coach (and the u21) coach was able to very clearly tell me. "if you want to be an u21 player, here are the skills that are valued for a defender" (tackling, positioning, game vision, speed stamina then add....etc etc) I had very clear defined goals and have been able to be on the u21 team at the age of 19

Last edited by Xarn at 2/28/2010 4:02:11 AM

However, the public information on what it takes to be an u21 player is lacking. Despite having learned quite a bit from you (as I mentioned above) regarding how to run a club team. I am no farther along in understanding what it is that the u21 team wants out of its players than I was 3 seasons ago. Do I need to be spoon fed? No.

You will have to forgive me if I don't want log into yet another website to find out basic guidelines for the NT/u21 teams. You call that lazy, so be it. There may come a time where I'm interested enough to log into the offsite forum but that time is not now.

I find these 2 statements funny. There's an NT database which outlines all the current players' skills/ages. I don't know what more you can ask for. It gives you a really good idea of what it takes to make the team, because you really can't even set general guidelines, like "X JS and Y OD by age 20" stuff, there are too many combinations of skills that work on an entire team.

You don't want to be spoon fed, yet you don't want to be bothered to log onto one other website.

Last edited by GM-namssor at 2/28/2010 11:40:36 AM

Respectfully disagree for two reasons. You can't see which players are on team (as simple as putting those players in bold or highlighted) and as you said there are too many combinations of players that work for a team to say X is enough. I have a player who is arguably better than players on the NT but as of now he is not on the team. Why not? I can't tell from the database why. I know why because I talk to Wozz (and others before him).

You really can learn a lot though from the off-site forum though where we can go into further details on tactical choices and training schemes.

Why is it necesary to go to another website to get general guidleines?

I'm not asking for strategy or game planning tips. Hell I'm not even asking for current roster specs.

I'm asking for a general discussion of what the minimum skills are to get a player considered for the squad.


I don't want to be involved in the NT/u21 here in so far as I don't excited about the tournament, the pregame match strategy, etc etc. I am, however, willing to train my players in a manner that might make them useful to the u21 team. I guess what I'm trying to say is that because I'm a manager who attempts to manage my players effectively and religiously, I can be of value to u21 team without having to be part of the u21 team organization. Yet, that doesn't seem to be an option here.

My choices are participate in the off site forum or don't be involved. In that case, the u21 team loses.

Last edited by Xarn at 2/28/2010 1:53:57 PM

Respectfully disagree for two reasons. You can't see which players are on team (as simple as putting those players in bold or highlighted) and as you said there are too many combinations of players that work for a team to say X is enough. I have a player who is arguably better than players on the NT but as of now he is not on the team. Why not? I can't tell from the database why. I know why because I talk to Wozz (and others before him).

You really can learn a lot though from the off-site forum though where we can go into further details on tactical choices and training schemes.

Thanks for saying these things. I have to admit to being ignorant of what is and isn't available to general users on the offsite forum as I don't use it. (that's pretty clear, isn't it?) Therefore, I couldn't speak to what I may have found if I had gone looking for it.

I also appreciate your endorsement of the education level that one could receive if they chose to participate in the off site forum. I still struggle with the idea that there isn't SOME kind of minimum requirement for players that can't be established and, therefore, made public knowledge.

For example, if in this upcoming draft, I get an 18 year old 6' 1" pg with perennial allstar potential who has proficient+ JS/JR/passing/handling, does that make him an automatic "hot" prospect. Or would he be eliminated from consideration because he has atrocious rebounding? what about free throws? How much emphasis is stamina put on a player that young?

These are the kinds of questions that present themselves and (I think) could be answered in a public forum.


*let me stipulate that I'm not looking for an exact discussion of the mythical player I just described. I only threw those stats out there as a jumping off point for discussion.

I'm asking for a general discussion of what the minimum skills are to get a player considered for the squad.

The minimum skills will vary depending on the quality of the class of players coming up as well as the needs of the team. If you have a specific question on one of your players could make the team its as simple as reaching out to the U21 Coach. I know both Coco and Wozzvt are always happy to help and try to constantly reach out to managers that have potential U21 players.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that because I'm a manager who attempts to manage my players effectively and religiously, I can be of value to u21 team without having to be part of the u21 team organization.

What value can you bring if you refuse to simply log onto another site. One of the biggest reasons that discussions of the national teams are kept on seperate forums is to secure the information of our team from foriegn eyes. You've already signed up and its as simple as logging in and posting any questions you have and we would all gladly discuss and answer you.

My choices are participate in the off site forum or don't be involved. In that case, the u21 team loses.

I hope for the sake of our future NT players that you and others will not stick to these beliefs and please come join our discussions. While a lot of the activity on the offsite forum is dedicated to strategies to upcoming matches we all will gladly participaite in debates on training strategies and any such topics you desire. its as simple as starting a new thread.

Nothing I say is meant to be offensive to you Xarn I just feel that it should not be the sole responsibility of the NT Coaches entice and reach out to each manager. They have many responsibilities and manage them to the best of their responsibilites. If you see an area in which they can approve please suggest them either here, on the NT forums or feel free to BBmail me any time as I'm sure we all want to improve the team in anyway we can.

Edit:

For example, if in this upcoming draft, I get an 18 year old 6' 1" pg with perennial allstar potential who has proficient+ JS/JR/passing/handling, does that make him an automatic "hot" prospect. Or would he be eliminated from consideration because he has atrocious rebounding? what about free throws? How much emphasis is stamina put on a player that young?

The skills of a player coming out of a draft do not matter as much as the training they recieve from the ages of 18-21. As shown by the first post in this thread some of the best prospects are ruined by bad training and some players not even noticed make the team. That is due to the managers effort to communicate and train efficiently.



Last edited by FatCurry at 2/28/2010 2:24:34 PM

What value can you bring if you refuse to simply log onto another site

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on this. I see it as simple but vital: I will train my players.

If they have u21 value and are trained properly - in a manner that is conducive to the u21 team - then that should be seen as extremely valuable to the u21 community.

I also have to disagree with you completely that a player's stats at the time he's drafted aren't important. My guess is that a player's skills at the time of draft are at least 50% of his ability to get to the u21 team. If he's starting from the right point AND he's trained the right way THEN he can be an u21 player. But I seriously doubt we can have one without the other.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that last part.