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OK Manon. the second example is way off.. that player could not play pait, run& gun nor push the ball. I wouldn't dare even think of playing him in outside shooting in the highest level of the game and or think of a win..

Which is why Manon is in a top league and you are in D.IV. He does think that way and you do not. That sort of player most certainly could play those tactics and his defense and passing clearly makes up for his lack of scoring. Along with the fact that you are saving 80-100k every single week (100k you can use to buy another player to beef up your offense), it is well worth it.

Tying this back into the original post, just to pretend like we are still sort of on topic, I see no problems with player salaries or player skills and how they work in different tactics. I think there are quite a few random factors for skills working in different offenses and defenses, but that is what makes the game fun and interesting to experiment with. This is not a reason why BB is losing users.

Last edited by E.B.W. at 10/5/2014 5:58:56 PM

A outside big don't need any driving much, maybe 5/6 to be fair. handling Ill go 7.. The rest has to be very high. That wont come cheap. Per level of play. The is point none has ever built it such . If they have were is he.?

I would absolutely not skimp on driving for an outside big. I'd like handling too. The problem is that you do need pretty much all six guard skills for a really effective outside big man, and combine those with the ID and RB (and SB, ideally) and you need to train for a massively long time - and probably find a guy starting with JR and OD at 7 to really make it happen. But if you're not going to give them much IS, you need the driving when you go against 3-2, and you need the handling to not turn it over.

You don't need it for outside tactics as much as much we all or you may think you do. Bigs should not be driving the ball period in out side shots tactics nor handling it much. If anything they should have some passing and stepping to shoot, outside shots uncontested ( jr/js). Passing and team flow is the key to outside tactics.

The pg/ sg/ sf do all the handling and also driving if they have to. This would create points. Team work flow. A outside big is much differ than a inside big. They are not built the same. Nor should be trained in the same fashion.

You can have a balance big but he will be basic. Not a pure out side big for the tactics played.. Easy answer for 3-2 zone is . Get a beastly a Sf or a guard duo. Player Role play if will. 3-2 ne can be carved if you have the right player and right type of outside big. To many people scoring at will, to much ball movement. Then the defense has to worry about fouls.. I think Sb 8/9 is good enough, I wouldn't get 10+ or better, it seems to bring more fouls.

Turnovers is going too happens this why good guard play or Sf play is very, very important. Its the fouls and missed shots the hurt the most.

Last edited by Mr. Glass at 10/5/2014 11:16:27 PM

Excuse my language but your so blind to a outside big. ill tell im going pull your card here . Post , don't plop down some bullfrog. Post down a outside shooting team skill for skill in what you need to have. to 100ppg.

You have not seen a outside big a day in your BB life. Show me a outside big that has come from under you that has mvp. scoring title. rebound title, block title in the same seasons ( I have already done it not once but 2 times).. Show me a outside big that has come from under your that is hit 100+ 3pter in center and pf. in the same season. show me a Pg that come from under you that even sniffed scoring title to getting one past his prime and cap? Show me pg that come from under you that has gotten 5 assist league titles in row.

League don't matter to me.? Its how the players play. None is questioning Manon acumen.. he asked me a question and I dam well answer in my own assessment. You don't agree who said it was a agreement rather than a assessment of thoughts?. Again you have not seen a true outside shooting big a day in your BB life. All you have seen is LI/ lp big tinkered..

That player would not get 25ppg+ 10reb+ a night in a outside shooting format.. I have had similar skilled players that could not do in 4 league. That player is under skilled. Period.

Excuse my language but your so blind to a outside big. ill tell im going pull your card here . Post , don't plop down some bullfrog. Post down a outside shooting team skill for skill in what you need to have. to 100ppg.

*you're and I don't need to because you are missing the point. The point is not to get a guy who is the best at the tactic as possible (As if that was the case, we would be talking about a 250k player). I am saying that for 62k, the player skillset that Manon posted is amazing.

You have not seen a outside big a day in your BB life. Show me a outside big that has come from under you that has mvp. scoring title. rebound title, block title in the same seasons ( I have already done it not once but 2 times).. Show me a outside big that has come from under your that is hit 100+ 3pter in center and pf. in the same season. show me a Pg that come from under you that even sniffed scoring title to getting one past his prime and cap? Show me pg that come from under you that has gotten 5 assist league titles in row.

What are you even talking about? You are literally just spewing words out of your mouth at the moment. This was not even a part of the conversation. Congratulations for doing that twice in D.V or D.IV or whenever you did it, but it doesn't mean anything. A player doesn't need to lead your league in scoring rebounding and blocks in a season to be effective. The skillset that Manon posted obviously will not lead in scoring (Although may lead in rebounding and blocking to be honest). Bigs are not needed to hit 100+ threes in an outside offense, so I don't know why you are expecting me to point one out to you. There are very few true outside bigs that are used to hit threes, which you did mention but generally in an outside offense, bigs are used more for defense, and the scoring is left up to the 1-3 positions with the bigs hitting shots here and there.

League don't matter to me.? Its how the players play. None is questioning Manon acumen.. he asked me a question and I dam well answer in my own assessment. You don't agree who said it was a agreement rather than a assessment of thoughts?. Again you have not seen a true outside shooting big a day in your BB life. All you have seen is LI/ lp big tinkered.

Thanks for the insight.

That player would not get 25ppg+ 10reb+ a night in a outside shooting format.. I have had similar skilled players that could not do in 4 league. That player is under skilled. Period.

HE DOES NOT NEED TO SCORE 25 POINTS PER NIGHT. Why on earth would you expect him to try to get that player with that skillset to score 25 a night? He is not underskilled, however he is undervalued clearly. That player would be amazing and everyone would be bidding on him if he was on the TL as he is so cheap for the beast that you are getting out of him.

Dude, you've just made the same mistake that you criticise everyone else for - I've seen managers regularly criticise you for your lack of experience and success, and you (rightly or wrongly) retaliate by saying your lack of success hasn't got relevance to your argument.

Now, you have turned around and attacked one of the most helpful and insightful managers on the forum here, accusing him of a lack of success in this one area. By your own argument, that is hypocritical and wrong, and the numbers you cite as a measure of this success are irrelevant as well.

I have a defensive big on my team, I don't care if he takes a single shot all game (in fact I hope he doesn't). He rarely gets minutes anymore because I can afford better backups, but the reason I still have him on my roster and sometimes give him 10 minutes every now and then is that he plays a role. He has strong ID, respectable in OD, passing and rebounding, and only costs me 3.6k. Bargain.

You don't show any understanding that to succeed in this game, you need all of your players to play a ROLE. Winning an MVP award on a dud team is pointless. That player Manon posted would play an awesome role, and I'd love to have someone like him any day of the week.

Okay, I tried to be quiet, but I can't.
I'm playing with outside teams for 20 seasons now. Two times I promoted with a Motion team, this season I'm playing with a RnG team and I hope I will promote again. During my Div. 2 turn I played with a Princeton team. I know exactly what kind of players every tactic needs.

You have not seen a outside big a day in your BB life.

Hmm... Surprise, I own one. And my two trainnes are two outside bigs as well.

Show me a outside big that has come from under you that has mvp. scoring title. rebound title, block title in the same seasons

That's not an outside big. That's a patient + def big. You can win the scoring title without hitting even one 3pter.

Show me a outside big that has come from under your that is hit 100+ 3pter in center and pf. in the same season.

Show me at least one Guard who did this. I have a Top 5 3pt shooter in Germany (not my league, but in the whole country) and he scored 76 3s during this season. Even for a guard it's more than hard to score such an amount.

Again you have not seen a true outside shooting big a day in your BB life.

Again, I have at least one of such bigs at my roster.

If you play an outside tactic, you want your two guards and your SF as the main scoring options. If you play Princeton than the PF will take the place of one of the others. In my team the PF replaced the PG as a scorer.
But most of the time your bigs are only a supporting cast. They defend (OD, ID and SB), they rebound (RB) and they pass and handle the ball (PA and HA). That's it. A outside big with high JS would only take unnecessary shots. And these shots will be taken away from your main scorers. That's contraproductive. You don't believe me? This guy (23545608) is a horrible offensive player. But he is a defensive force like you never saw one in this game. He has almost the same amount of blocks as points per game. Unfortunately he capped long time ago and his passing is weak. But all in all, he is an outside big. He supports my scorers with a tremendous inside defense and good rebounding. And the engine is on his side. He ranked third in the MVP ballot this season. He was one of the reasons why I ranked first in defense. This guy alone forces my opponets to doubt if they can play LI against me or not.
I saw Manons players and I talked with him about SB and his idea about outside bigs and I totally agree with him.

Until you show some facts here, and with facts I mean calculations, players data and games, I would recommend you to listen to managers who know what they do. Have a nice day.

Last edited by Nachtmahr at 10/6/2014 4:45:10 AM

If you play an outside tactic, you want your two guards and your SF as the main scoring options. If you play Princeton than the PF will take the place of one of the others. In my team the PF replaced the PG as a scorer.
But most of the time your bigs are only a supporting cast. They defend (OD, ID and SB), they rebound (RB) and they pass and handle the ball (PA and HA). That's it. A outside big with high JS would only take unnecessary shots. And these shots will be taken away from your main scorers. That's contraproductive.

I think it's depending on how you define high. I do know when I run Princeton (which, sadly, I find that GDP is making me hesitant to do), if my opponent is playing M2M I'd much rather let one of my bigs take a contested three point shot against one of their bigs than to see my under-JR'd guards/SF try to beat the OD of my opponent's guys. And I'm talking like 11 JS/8JR and 9+_/8++ JS/JR on the two bigs (the other's only got 7/5 because I drafted him). I agree that what Mr. G is talking about does sound like patient forwards and I'm not sure I'd push for that either, but I just wanted to provide one experienced counter-example of someone who would love his PF to shoot more from three. Other than the abomination that was this year, for example, Cheek has been consistently above 30% from three since he actually transitioned to PF/C.
(http://www.buzzerbeater.com/player/23475097/careerstats.a...)

You don't need it for outside tactics as much as much we all or you may think you do. Bigs should not be driving the ball period in out side shots tactics nor handling it much. If anything they should have some passing and stepping to shoot, outside shots uncontested ( jr/js). Passing and team flow is the key to outside tactics.

The pg/ sg/ sf do all the handling and also driving if they have to. This would create points. Team work flow. A outside big is much differ than a inside big. They are not built the same. Nor should be trained in the same fashion.

You can have a balance big but he will be basic. Not a pure out side big for the tactics played.. Easy answer for 3-2 zone is . Get a beastly a Sf or a guard duo. Player Role play if will. 3-2 ne can be carved if you have the right player and right type of outside big. To many people scoring at will, to much ball movement. Then the defense has to worry about fouls.. I think Sb 8/9 is good enough, I wouldn't get 10+ or better, it seems to bring more fouls.

Turnovers is going too happens this why good guard play or Sf play is very, very important. Its the fouls and missed shots the hurt the most.

The problem with trying to beat 3-2 with a "beastly" SG/SF duo is that as you get into higher competition, the costs ramp up dramatically more in salary for more JS/JR for an SG/SF salary formula than they do for more OD in a guy in the LI PG mold. Plus, you tend to find fewer teams that will play a 3-2 with aa PF with no OD at SF, since they know that those players will be torched. Plus, if you want to look at the training side, it takes a lot longer to raise a level of JR plus a level of JS than it does to train a level of OD.

Just keep in mind that even in Motion/R&G/Princeton, there are a lot of inside/driving shots attempted still. Against a zone, those might be almost the best (except for the ones where the PF/C is guarding a mid-range jumper by one of your scorers).

A role where?? on your team. But not on mines. No sir.!! if we talking about he highest level Os . He no where near good enough for what I would want or would need.. 4 tactics,, not just built as OS. but 4 tactic build as outs ide shooter. Huge difference there.

I have not disrespected anyone.? Where is any disrespect?

Some of you guys are blinded to seeing IS shooting big you don't know what a os shooting big should look like to play 4 tactics of Os and be effective Nt merits be damned.. You cant flop a player down and think all is well. Level of play means nothing in this debate. How does it hinder to know how tactic work and should play and the player role in highest level.? How does it hinder anything. We are talking about the highest level of play not div 4.

If you put the player b in b3 in outside tactics he would get crushed.!!! period end of discussion.!! I don't need to make b3 or nbba to know , My eye's work damn fine ,nothing wrong with "live game" function to my understanding. my note are the same notes everyones takes down, I don't know if games are vanishing from the logs as we speak. please inform me. sir.. But in all seriousness he is not strong enough for the highest level of play to play 4 os tactic and be effective. If this was the case then why player A much better.?

winning mvp with a bench player regardless of league is hard work and getting to make 100 3 pter in same season is even harder work.. I don't care what you say or think.. You do next season if it so easy!!. I have done it in my BB life span. 4 scoring titles as well 3 differ players.

Advancing leagues and all that is fine and dandy, but the tactic's never will change. What the player should be will never change either. Again show hows that false.? Show me how I its disrespectful to state the already known.

Last edited by Mr. Glass at 10/6/2014 6:08:37 PM