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Even salaries will never shoot well from the guard spots, ever. Not till they change salary formula or completely replace the GE or something.

False. My team is shooting 37% from three, which is just a tad under the Golden State Warriors (41%). Take away the games I've played LI or Low Post and it'd be about the same.

I do have a much higher salary load than my league but that comes mostly from my bigs. My guard Chip Whitesides is a 50k guard shooing 40% in a D2 league. I don't think passing is the key to outside scoring, I think its a correct balance of JS and JR along with an ability to drive on occasion.

Last edited by Chekreyes at 4/1/2016 10:19:38 AM

I can't disagree. My run with Princeton mostly led to the same results - I did have one guard who was a great outside shooter and he had one season where he did shoot a little better than the SF/PF positions (I think a 42% in season 29), but for the most part my 11/9 type JS/JR big men ended up shooting a higher percentage from three than the guards would.

I also think I agree that it's going to be tough to be effective from outside at the guard spots and be salary efficient. The outside focus pretty much relies on the salary efficiency coming from the big men, by avoiding the boost in salary from IS and getting JS and JR there instead, but relying on that entirely then leads to the problem of how to break a 3-2 zone, which is the wall that most outside focused teams eventually will run into.

I'm in the middle of trying something really out of the ordinary to test out a personal theory of mine, but I'm way too far away from done to really evaluate it yet. My best guess is that it'll turn out to be a case of government spending: why build something wildly expensive and ineffective when you can build something twice as ineffective for twice the cost?

Your team shooting % is not your guard shooting %

I agree.

Your highest salary guards makes 110k, NOT 50k.
Andy Jack is shooting near 50% He doesn't play a guard position.

Surely that skews the team 3% a bit???

If you want to talk about skewing the percentage how about my C (0-5) my PF (4-21) my backup big (4-13) and my scrubs (0-6, 1-5, 0-1).

Also. I never claimed my highest guard salary was 50k, I just chose that as an example. Spoonmore (paid 110k/week) is about the same salary as most teams primary scoring bigs in my league.

If we are talking purely guard %'s then Spoonmore (SG) = 43% and Yazzie (PG) = 44.4% that's against D2 level competition.

WHiteside, also an SF, shoots ( I just eyeballed the numbers) around 70% from the SF spot, and not as great from the guard spots with that 50k salary.

He comes off the bench and plays PG, SG, and SF mins each game so that's not true.

Your 110k salary guard, now he shoots much better from the guard spots than the 50k salary guys...maybe because he has 110k salary level stats??!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said Yazzie has a better percentage than him and Yazzie is 50k. Spoonmore and Whitesides also have the same JS stat.

Yazzie shoots well in games like this
http://www.buzzerbeater.com/match/89130719/boxscore.aspx
against guys like this (Cs training out of position)
http://www.buzzerbeater.com/player/34395310/overview.aspx

3-6? Come on that's not changing his percentage. It's barely over his average.

WHEN your team plays REAL competition, you will see as I said-

You can't shoot well FROM THE GUARD SPOTS without paying MUCH HIGHER salaries IF the opponent is playing a REAL line-up and is LEGIT competition.

So a game like this? (89122809) I played a team WR 200 (it was overtime so I won't mention the OD rating of 11) but they have a roster that destroys mine in spending, I didn't have Luke Simmons (150k C) at the time.

Spoonmore knocked down 9-15 threes against a 65k SG, Whitesides (played ~10 SF mins, ~12 guard mins) knocked down 4-8, and Yazzie managed to go 1-4 against a 180k USA National Team PG.

That's 14-27 (52%) from the guard positions maybe dipping a little into Whitesides SF mins. Point is, I was outspent, even at the guard positions if you total them together, but because my bigs where defensively efficient for the salaries I pay them I could afforrd a guard like Spoonmore when other teams buy 110k PF's.

In the regular season you play tankers, abandoned teams and people training out of position. Don't get it twisted.

Like when I played this tanking team and shot 2-9? (89130725)

I just clicked a few games where your guards actually shot well form the guard spots nad they faced low pressure rating teams...I'm not going to break down your schedule, but let me put it this way-

Ok that one is too vague for me to disprove.

If you face a 50k LI guard in the b3 that team will be torn to shreds if you are trying ti win with 3 pointers on discount salaries at the PG/SG spot. You'll see, undeniably, in eveyr case, that unless you shoot from like the PF spot or have double to triple the salaries you will NOT shoot well from 3 PG/SG.. You just wont. They'll take that no salary cost 15+ IS PG/SG etc. and destroy you in LI.

That's the problem you will never win if you are going for "discount" on your main scorers. Outside Offenses will only work when you reverse the typical salary distribution and pay your guards more than your bigs and find a way to make cheaper bigs defend well. Like my big Linn (50k salary, 14 SB)

I would be happy to see someone prove me wrong ,but so far all I get is misinformation bordering on lies.

You're welcome.

For those who don't want to read my above argument due to length here is a stat that basically sums it up.

In games this season where I have played Run and Gun or Motion against teams that are competitive in D2 (5 samples) my team has shot 53-126 from the 3-point line (42%) a higher percentage than the Golden State Warriors.

My guards in those games have shot 42-87 (48.3%) against competitive D2 teams.

I admit I have the highest payload in my league by a decent margin. However the bulk of my salary comes from my bigs (120k and 158k). Not my guards (110k, 51k, 50k).

I rest my case.

Last edited by Chekreyes at 4/2/2016 3:37:00 PM

For those who don't want to read my above argument due to length here is a stat that basically sums it up.

I wish you'd said there'd be a short summary BEFORE I read the long version. ;)

For those who don't want to read my above argument due to length here is a stat that basically sums it up.

I wish you'd said there'd be a short summary BEFORE I read the long version. ;)

Brevity is the soul of

Brevity is the soul of

Timing?

So this is my point to you- Really successful teams don't spend big on guards OR bigs. They get the free stats. PA and OD on the bigs, this stops the outside shooting success at big spots, the only kind that's cheap. The PA/DR on the bigs is more important than their expensive IS> Lots of teams skimp on SB to keep the big salary even lower.

I think a similar build can be created for a succesful outside team, but it requires players that simply don't exist on the market.

KK Mordor won the B3 three times, and I don't know if you saw his roster. But none of his players had passing... like they were all 10 or below other than one player with 13. This is because ALL of his players could score, his guards, like you pointed out, had 17+ IS which was basically free on the guard salary.

His bigs still cost 197k and 181k, while his guards cost 117k down to 68k and 53k (It's hard cause his players could play almost any position)

I believe a build like that could work very well for outside offenses, just with the cost distribution reversed.

For example

PG - 185k/week
SG - 185k/week
SF - 70k/week
PF - 80k/week
C - 80k/week

bGuard - 105k/week
bSF - 70k/week
bBig - 60k/week
Total: 835k/week (About KK Mordors payload)

In order to defend at all against LI the bigs would looks something like this

(http://i.imgur.com/XnURNyW.png)

Which frees up the guards to be power houses like this

(http://i.imgur.com/Ic2SZHy.png)
(Turns out when I maxed out a HoF I didn't even need to go to 185k thanks to the decrease in JR salary.

SF like this
(http://i.imgur.com/f1Bbk5Y.png)
(Went a little higher to compensate for the guards)

I think any team today would have trouble stopping that, AND have trouble getting through that defensive wall both inside and out.