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You seem to have taken offense at my comments. I did not mean to indicate that you have not been an extremely active and helpful mentor. You have. You were one of the few people who participated in the mentoring threads and then the "closer look at 1 team" thread in a positive manner on a regular basis.

However, the public information on what it takes to be an u21 player is lacking. Despite having learned quite a bit from you (as I mentioned above) regarding how to run a club team. I am no farther along in understanding what it is that the u21 team wants out of its players than I was 3 seasons ago. Do I need to be spoon fed? No. Do the forum users needs some form of general guideline? Absolutely. Is it your job to provide that guideline? If you're the u21 coach, you bet it is.

I'm not talking about making distinctions between player A and B. I'm saying generic stuff, such as "a guy on the tracking list at PG should have a minimum of "wondrous JS by age 19" but he also needs X handling, Y passing and the u21 doesn't want a player who isn't at least Z in Free Throws or stamina, etc etc.

I'm not trying to dictated what those parameters should be as I'm clearly telling you I have no idea what the parameters are.

To say that I have been lazy is a shortcut and unfairly dismissive. You will have to forgive me if I don't want log into yet another website to find out basic guidelines for the NT/u21 teams. You call that lazy, so be it. There may come a time where I'm interested enough to log into the offsite forum but that time is not now. In the meantime, you're losing lots of prospects on teams just like mine because the word isn't out there to the general public on what skills are valued at what levels for what positions on the u21 team and therefore there are lots of managers who are training guys with real potential ineffectively by u21 standards.

For example, in HT if a player came out with Head, Solid winger and solid playmaking, we would want him trained in playmaking but if the same skilled player had Quick. You can be darn sure, I'd do what I could to get him a winger trainer.

I'm rambling now and this very well could be an apples and oranges comparison. I just know that I'm lost in BB when it comes to the u21 and I'm willing to bet that a lot of other users are too. if you care to shed some light, great. If I'm just way off track, I can live with that too. Rest assured, I'm not asking because I'm being lazy. I'm asking because I want to know.

EDIT: A thought occurred to me that perhaps this is more like footstar.org where there are more skills to train than in HT. Even still, my coach (and the u21) coach was able to very clearly tell me. "if you want to be an u21 player, here are the skills that are valued for a defender" (tackling, positioning, game vision, speed stamina then add....etc etc) I had very clear defined goals and have been able to be on the u21 team at the age of 19

Last edited by Xarn at 2/28/2010 4:02:11 AM

However, the public information on what it takes to be an u21 player is lacking. Despite having learned quite a bit from you (as I mentioned above) regarding how to run a club team. I am no farther along in understanding what it is that the u21 team wants out of its players than I was 3 seasons ago. Do I need to be spoon fed? No.

You will have to forgive me if I don't want log into yet another website to find out basic guidelines for the NT/u21 teams. You call that lazy, so be it. There may come a time where I'm interested enough to log into the offsite forum but that time is not now.

I find these 2 statements funny. There's an NT database which outlines all the current players' skills/ages. I don't know what more you can ask for. It gives you a really good idea of what it takes to make the team, because you really can't even set general guidelines, like "X JS and Y OD by age 20" stuff, there are too many combinations of skills that work on an entire team.

You don't want to be spoon fed, yet you don't want to be bothered to log onto one other website.

Last edited by GM-namssor at 2/28/2010 11:40:36 AM

Respectfully disagree for two reasons. You can't see which players are on team (as simple as putting those players in bold or highlighted) and as you said there are too many combinations of players that work for a team to say X is enough. I have a player who is arguably better than players on the NT but as of now he is not on the team. Why not? I can't tell from the database why. I know why because I talk to Wozz (and others before him).

You really can learn a lot though from the off-site forum though where we can go into further details on tactical choices and training schemes.

Why is it necesary to go to another website to get general guidleines?

I'm not asking for strategy or game planning tips. Hell I'm not even asking for current roster specs.

I'm asking for a general discussion of what the minimum skills are to get a player considered for the squad.


I don't want to be involved in the NT/u21 here in so far as I don't excited about the tournament, the pregame match strategy, etc etc. I am, however, willing to train my players in a manner that might make them useful to the u21 team. I guess what I'm trying to say is that because I'm a manager who attempts to manage my players effectively and religiously, I can be of value to u21 team without having to be part of the u21 team organization. Yet, that doesn't seem to be an option here.

My choices are participate in the off site forum or don't be involved. In that case, the u21 team loses.

Last edited by Xarn at 2/28/2010 1:53:57 PM

Respectfully disagree for two reasons. You can't see which players are on team (as simple as putting those players in bold or highlighted) and as you said there are too many combinations of players that work for a team to say X is enough. I have a player who is arguably better than players on the NT but as of now he is not on the team. Why not? I can't tell from the database why. I know why because I talk to Wozz (and others before him).

You really can learn a lot though from the off-site forum though where we can go into further details on tactical choices and training schemes.

Thanks for saying these things. I have to admit to being ignorant of what is and isn't available to general users on the offsite forum as I don't use it. (that's pretty clear, isn't it?) Therefore, I couldn't speak to what I may have found if I had gone looking for it.

I also appreciate your endorsement of the education level that one could receive if they chose to participate in the off site forum. I still struggle with the idea that there isn't SOME kind of minimum requirement for players that can't be established and, therefore, made public knowledge.

For example, if in this upcoming draft, I get an 18 year old 6' 1" pg with perennial allstar potential who has proficient+ JS/JR/passing/handling, does that make him an automatic "hot" prospect. Or would he be eliminated from consideration because he has atrocious rebounding? what about free throws? How much emphasis is stamina put on a player that young?

These are the kinds of questions that present themselves and (I think) could be answered in a public forum.


*let me stipulate that I'm not looking for an exact discussion of the mythical player I just described. I only threw those stats out there as a jumping off point for discussion.

I'm asking for a general discussion of what the minimum skills are to get a player considered for the squad.

The minimum skills will vary depending on the quality of the class of players coming up as well as the needs of the team. If you have a specific question on one of your players could make the team its as simple as reaching out to the U21 Coach. I know both Coco and Wozzvt are always happy to help and try to constantly reach out to managers that have potential U21 players.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that because I'm a manager who attempts to manage my players effectively and religiously, I can be of value to u21 team without having to be part of the u21 team organization.

What value can you bring if you refuse to simply log onto another site. One of the biggest reasons that discussions of the national teams are kept on seperate forums is to secure the information of our team from foriegn eyes. You've already signed up and its as simple as logging in and posting any questions you have and we would all gladly discuss and answer you.

My choices are participate in the off site forum or don't be involved. In that case, the u21 team loses.

I hope for the sake of our future NT players that you and others will not stick to these beliefs and please come join our discussions. While a lot of the activity on the offsite forum is dedicated to strategies to upcoming matches we all will gladly participaite in debates on training strategies and any such topics you desire. its as simple as starting a new thread.

Nothing I say is meant to be offensive to you Xarn I just feel that it should not be the sole responsibility of the NT Coaches entice and reach out to each manager. They have many responsibilities and manage them to the best of their responsibilites. If you see an area in which they can approve please suggest them either here, on the NT forums or feel free to BBmail me any time as I'm sure we all want to improve the team in anyway we can.

Edit:

For example, if in this upcoming draft, I get an 18 year old 6' 1" pg with perennial allstar potential who has proficient+ JS/JR/passing/handling, does that make him an automatic "hot" prospect. Or would he be eliminated from consideration because he has atrocious rebounding? what about free throws? How much emphasis is stamina put on a player that young?

The skills of a player coming out of a draft do not matter as much as the training they recieve from the ages of 18-21. As shown by the first post in this thread some of the best prospects are ruined by bad training and some players not even noticed make the team. That is due to the managers effort to communicate and train efficiently.



Last edited by FatCurry at 2/28/2010 2:24:34 PM

What value can you bring if you refuse to simply log onto another site

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on this. I see it as simple but vital: I will train my players.

If they have u21 value and are trained properly - in a manner that is conducive to the u21 team - then that should be seen as extremely valuable to the u21 community.

I also have to disagree with you completely that a player's stats at the time he's drafted aren't important. My guess is that a player's skills at the time of draft are at least 50% of his ability to get to the u21 team. If he's starting from the right point AND he's trained the right way THEN he can be an u21 player. But I seriously doubt we can have one without the other.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that last part.

The reason why you have not "found" Diehl is because he has played as a SF.

What value can you bring if you refuse to simply log onto another site

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on this. I see it as simple but vital: I will train my players.

If they have u21 value and are trained properly - in a manner that is conducive to the u21 team - then that should be seen as extremely valuable to the u21 community.

I also have to disagree with you completely that a player's stats at the time he's drafted aren't important. My guess is that a player's skills at the time of draft are at least 50% of his ability to get to the u21 team. If he's starting from the right point AND he's trained the right way THEN he can be an u21 player. But I seriously doubt we can have one without the other.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that last part.

You're correct that both are required, but I think what people are trying to say is that beyond a fairly basic cut-off (i.e. "u21 prospects should at the least be 18yr old and have a 5k salary or better after the draft" or something along those lines) there really aren't a lot of broadly applicable guidelines anyone can give you about specific skill requirements because it's very hard to say anything definitive that early in the process.

Does a guard need to be drafted at respectable OD to compete on the u21 team, 3-4 seasons from now? Could he start with mediocre OD? Could you get away with inept OD if you focused on making him more of an offensive focused player who could be used by the u21 for some extra scoring off the bench? What if you just trained OD really hard for four seasons? There's so many possibilities for how you might train a player, what his prospective role on the team may be, and even what sorts of skills/players the u21 may need four seasons from now that it's really difficult to ask the managers to come up with guidelines for specific skills, especially at such an early time point.

And even if the managers did cave in and decide to throw out some specific skill cutoffs for 18 year olds fresh out of the draft, they would probably either be so low/broad as to be fairly meaningless, or high enough that a half dozen people would be on the forums here disputing an absolute requirement for 6 OD at draft time because if you train them so and so, then they could still do such and such, etc.

Paraphrasing what's already been said by several other posters, I think it's totally fair and probably the only practical solution for the managers to say something like:

"We're always here to help you, we'll gladly answer any emails/questions and go over your prospects in depth with you, we have a lot of good discussion on the off-site forums where we talk about this stuff too, but it's difficult for us to make specific guidelines for general 'prospects' and if you're flat out refusing to even consider visiting the off-site forums or emailing us, there's not much else we can really do here."

The reality is that it probably takes a lot more effort to train a guy well for four seasons than it does to reach out on an off-site forum occasionally, so personally I don't understand your reluctance to use the off-site forum if you are interested in seeing one of your prospects on the u21 team. If you just feel like it'd be a nice bonus to make u21 but really just want to focus more on what's best for your team, then just train however works best for yourself, don't worry too much about the u21/NT community, and if by their 21st year your players are good enough then 'hey, sweet deal' and somebody will already be contacting you about calling them up probably.

If u21 is a goal for you, the managers seem to be saying that this is a two-way street and they're willing to help but it's gonna take at least enough effort on your part to visit the off-site forums or send an email.