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Wow.

For what it's worth, Caetta actually started at SG (I wanted to eliminate the thought that it was a weird artifact of a blank lineup or some such).

So I guess that the description in the manual is precisely correct - a fifth player playing man to man vs. the best offensive player, and specifically for outside, the fifth defender focuses on the best outside scorer. It's just that the engine's selection of which player is the fifth defender is not guaranteed to be the best outside defender. I wonder if it uses something like a sum of OD + ID + SB to generate a "total defense" rating and then just sticks the highest guy there? I'm always willing to say that it's not a bug but just a poor design choice or poor documentation of the choice. ;)

[edit: Or possibly a more likely scenario, the 2 "outside" guys in the box are the two best OD guys, the two "inside" guys are the best ID guys, and the remaining guy is the man to man guy for both formats. I'll have to check and see if I ever actually played this to get an idea - I know I've thought about it at times but I rarely deviate far from M2M.]

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 6/27/2012 10:42:54 AM

I can eliminate the idea that the two best OD guys are the outside, the two best ID are the inside and the last guy is the man to man guy.

(42762298)

I don't have access to the PBP but looking at the advanced stats available from the USA offsite, it is obvious to me that Menard was selected to match up with Mayberry as the number of contested shots he was part of was too high to not be the case, plus his backup having a high number of contested shots as well solidifies that. Depending on GS at the time, Menard would have been the best or second best OD guy, though, so that kills the "leftover" theory. He does have better ID than the other top OD guy, but worse shotblocking, so unless there's a weird GS issue, it's fairly certain to not be just OD + SB.

This is definitely an interesting endeavor, though. It would be nice if there was something in the rules that gave some sort of indication how the "and one" was chosen, or if it was something we could set in the lineup, but that's an issue for another forum. ;)

Wow, thanks for breaking down the information.

Reading the game manual again, I guess hruday is right. It is not stated how the fifth player is picked. Maybe the engine has an unusual way of picking the fifth defender. This is backed up by the fact that the last time I played outside box-and-one, my center was the one guarding my opponent's key player.

By the way, is the "Ask the BBs" thread still there? I can't seem to find it. If I remember correctly, the BBs posted something about box-and-one defenses there.

By the way, is the "Ask the BBs" thread still there? I can't seem to find it. If I remember correctly, the BBs posted something about box-and-one defenses there.

From Manon's link, I tracked down the specific post:
(208622.117)

While I can't disclose all the details, I can give you a general idea of how the BaO defense works. Before the game starts, both the best offense and defense players are calculated based on their skills, with the offense/defense type in mind. You cannot "set" those players, but you can probably guess who they would be, using some rational thinking and common sense. It was intentionally coded that way. Those player roles remain the same even after substitutions occur, so there are no changes during matches. I may have even said too much already

If the defense type is involved in the calculation, barring some extremely unusual builds, I don't see how a PF could have been selected as the primary defender for an outside shooter who plays at the guard spot. Well, except if this is another one of those hidden cases where shotblocking is supposed to be useful and is therefore factored in heavily in the player selection.

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 6/27/2012 3:41:34 PM

This is an intresting thread. I have not used outside box in seasons 19-20 (there have not been many one scorer teams). I did use it in S18 and I did use it in S17 with a few inside boxes for flavor. I did have a few weird results, where the main scorer actually did score more than his average was. Either there is a bug in picking the right defender or the defender chosen has still too low defence to do the job. Still with one defender on him the whole time and the team helping out in a zone, I would expect more dishes from the player than shots. Perhaps this is the weakness of the GE, there is no double team help defence. Here the first defender no longer contributes to defence value, when the switch happens.

game engine made the correct pick while deciding "the one" in the opponent's team..
we understand this because he was always defended by the same guy..
but the defender was picked incorrectly..
if we have made a survey and asked the users who should be "the one" on defense against this Patient, i'm sure %95 of them would pick the Swiss guard correctly..

maybe someone should tell BBs how Patient works..

I agree completely. I am just interested in trying to figure out the specific details of the fault, as in the one game that I played it in the previous season the selection was much more sensible. I actually think in theory that the box and one could be useful against a patient, but of course if it's not possible to ensure that the man defender is actually who it should be then it makes it a far less desirable tactic indeed.

Maybe you are right about using OD + ID + SB for calculating the defense. In your game did the fifth player have the highest OD + ID + SB? In my case using OD + SB should select Caetta (PG) while OD + ID + SB selects Conley (PF) correctly.

But I agree that this way of calculating the fifth player does not seem nice.

Last edited by Greedy at 6/28/2012 10:18:35 AM