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BB Global (English) > Expanding LI, not beating it

Expanding LI, not beating it

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This Post:
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278218.31 in reply to 278218.30
Date: 4/7/2016 4:05:03 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
5353
I dont take part in the forum discussion much, so forgive me if i have missed your previous analysis. For me i have gone SB > ID mostly to see what it can do as it is a vastly unused skill, and I have enjoyed my results so far. If Marin has confirmed that SB = ID is best practice why is this not public knowledge and why are peoples views on SB so jaded?? I would bet 95% of managers dont ever train SB.

The only part i have a hard time believing is that the Game Engine is that in depth. Personally, I think it is much simpler then they want us to believe, Theres only a few Skill's, Its basketball and has 1 clear way to win. Being someone who dabbles in creating simulations for fun I just dont see any real depth to the engine outside of, pick who shoots, > is he better then defender > x chance to make it > result > next play.

Haek is a very interesting player, Id like to create a guy with 20s in OD/ID/SB just to see how he plays.
What are his defensive splits?




This Post:
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278218.32 in reply to 278218.30
Date: 4/7/2016 6:03:50 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
Well, there is the fact that SB trains much faster so it makes sense to do that before ID, but yeah I agree that ID=SB works best on big men, I did follow the discussions and went that way too.

I'm not convinced about SB on guards though, but I suppose the whole premise here was that it might help on the driving opponents in LI. If that's the case though, it would be cheaper and easier to run zone defenses (with high SB on the bigs) like some managers have tried in the past. It surely is a lot easier than having both guards and SF with high SB. And let's be honest: Mordor's Chaperon had 20 IS and no matter how much you train SB, you will never have anywhere near 20 SB on a guard.

This Post:
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278218.34 in reply to 278218.15
Date: 4/7/2016 8:27:30 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
I've been training almost all my seasons in the game(plus all the seasons in Utopia).
This season is the first ever i gave JR training.
I was SHOCKED to see my 24y old, 6'7" trainee, getting THREE pop ups in FOUR JR sessions, with two OD sessions in between.
That is a confirmed >0,50 in JR, per session, at 24y and at SF height!!!!!


If it's way behind the other skills, it can be quick. The elastic effect appears very heavy on JR - I have a level 6 trainer and my 20 year old 6'1" guy took 5 weeks of full training to go from 16 to 17 JR.

This Post:
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278218.35 in reply to 278218.34
Date: 4/8/2016 4:23:10 AM
Maddogs-Hellas
IV.5
Overall Posts Rated:
13091309
I forgot to mention, i have level 4 trainer in that guy's team.
His JR was one below JS before the first pop up, two up now.
It was 8 below OD though.
I am certain it's got something to do with the elastic effect too, but that much?

p.s 20year old, 17JR...and his daughter's name is Riley by any chance?



This Post:
00
278218.36 in reply to 278218.33
Date: 4/8/2016 5:18:56 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
Everyone, IMO, errors in the way of punting JR and SB for sooo long.... and they are lower salary cost, free in some formulas.
Cap formulas are actually very clear. JR takes (used to take) more cap than any other outside skill for Cs, about 5 times more than PA and JS is the second highest (and usually the main culprit about gimped Cs salary-wise or skill-wise) about 3 times more than PA.

JR had a higher Cap weight than OD for SG. JR had nearly the same Cap weight than OD and higher than IS and ID for SFs.


Last edited by Lemonshine at 4/8/2016 5:19:14 AM

This Post:
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278218.38 in reply to 278218.35
Date: 4/8/2016 9:04:24 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
I forgot to mention, i have level 4 trainer in that guy's team.
His JR was one below JS before the first pop up, two up now.
It was 8 below OD though.
I am certain it's got something to do with the elastic effect too, but that much?

p.s 20year old, 17JR...and his daughter's name is Riley by any chance?


It's got to be that much. All three of my 20 year olds have had the same pretty consistent slowdown in JR as the weeks go on, beyond what I had anticipated. Originally I had hoped to have all three at or very close to 20 by the end of this season, but now I'm not sure I can even hit 19 and one of the three may not make 18. We live and learn, or we refuse to learn and refuse to grow, I guess.

This Post:
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278218.39 in reply to 278218.38
Date: 4/8/2016 10:00:54 AM
Maddogs-Hellas
IV.5
Overall Posts Rated:
13091309
We live and learn, or we refuse to learn and refuse to grow, I guess.

True

This Post:
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278218.40 in reply to 278218.37
Date: 4/8/2016 10:19:05 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
I think we all agree we'd rather have the extra 40 skill points build!!!!
No I don't agree with this statement.
100 TSP might be extremely salary efficient, while the 140 will definitely cost you a lot more (in salary, without getting in the training discussion).

Also skills are not equal and their cap weight is not representative of their usefulness. In short this PG has 100 TSP:
http://i.imgur.com/xxrIJT4.png
and this PG has 140TSP:
http://i.imgur.com/IZTJURD.png
You can see the rating assigned by buzzer-manager yourself.

This is the cap table. As you can see your 5 to 45 numbers are not necessarily correct.
.........JS.........JR......OD .....HA......DR......PA......IS.........ID.......RB..........SB
PG....18%....28%....30%....23%....11%...50%....5%......5%....20%......3%
SG....45%....41%....40%......6%.....6%.....7%.....6%....10%....25%......3%
SF....60%....23%....30%......5%.....5%.....3%....10%....20%....35%.....3%
PF....34%......6%....5%........5%.....5%.....3%....40%....40%....40%....16%
C........8%....15%....0%........3%.....3%....3%....46%.....42%....45%....23%

Last edited by Lemonshine at 4/8/2016 10:21:43 AM

This Post:
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278218.41 in reply to 278218.33
Date: 4/8/2016 1:00:32 PM
white snake
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
72437243
Second Team:
Black Forest Boars
Everyone, IMO, errors in the way of punting JR and SB for sooo long.... and they are lower salary cost, free in some formulas.

Naah, that's two of the three main skills/trainings I did in Utopia. It was one of the results from the seasons long data collection. That's also the way I mentored some of the german managers when they trained their guards (JR) and bigs (SB). And I'm doing the same with the swedish NT now.

For SB I can look at it that way with ID a little bit but I error more towards SB>ID for bigs by about 3 points, and at the VERY least even, to guarantee effective defense. For PG~SF I will take SB as much as 5 points higher than ID gladly.
This is for 4 reasons-

#1 SB helps on all shots, even some that ID doesn't matter.
#2 It is help defense stat, ID isn't
#3 It is cheaper/free for those positions
#4 You can't spend so many points at big stats for guard, he will be big/have no skills of guard. So I choose IS/SB whatever ID pops by secondary/elastic and CT and pray that RB stays as low as possible

- Nestor was at the difference you emtioned SB=ID+3. For getting blocks it's great. For your overall defense it's a little bit weak. The reason is that your player will cause a missmatch because of his ID. This will attract more actions against him and thanks to his SB he will defend and block a lot. BUT... Your success rate for his defense will be lower than from a guy with SB=ID.
Simple example:
Player A: ID 13 - SB 16
Player B: ID 16 - SB 16

Player A will defend more shots and thanks to this he will end up with more blocks. Player B is the stronger guy, so the offense will try to go around. The question here is: where is the break even point? Is it better to have a guy who decreases the overall actions because of his overwhelming defense or is it better to have a "trap big". Someone who might be a weaker ID player but strikes you with his SB more often. Both things work. I know this, because I'm currently in this situation.

Let's take Nestor again.
His SB% is at 37% this season. His success rate in defense is at 73%. He had the same numbers last season too. What does this mean? Two seasons ago I came to the conclusion (from my numbers and old BB posts) that there is a border line for defense. The GE has it's "weakling rule" so that even a benchwarmer with very low skills could score some points. This border line is at 90%. 10% of the defense actions will end with a shooting foul or with a field goal. That's where my Haek lives. Since his training is finished, he is between 82% and 89%. Even during the season 32 against bot teams he finished with 87%. Nestor defends a little bit more than twice as much actions as Haek. So, Haek is Player B from my example. Nestor Player A (just other skills, but the gap suits). Who is better for my team? I understand why you say you go with SB>ID. I see the benefits from it. For me, such a guy is a trap. And this trap can hurt the others really badly. But if you take it in general, the SB=ID is stronger. More efficient. He will have a higher success rate and a lower shooting foul rate (as long as he isn't a fouler). The only thing were he will be "weaker" is the amount of blocks. But the block% will be almost the same for them.

#1 SB helps on all shots, even some that ID doesn't matter.

Yes. The more you get away from the paint, the less blocks and the impact goes down. But even at 3ptrs SB kicks in.

#2 It is help defense stat, ID isn't

Jop.

Are you going to be promoting to a top league any time soon?

Not with the first team. But the second team plays its first season in Div. 2 and the target is to promote to Div. 1. I'm almost finished with the players base so next season I want to buy 1-2 players to strentghen my team. It's like this: all the errors and tests and results which I did with the first team are used to build the second one.

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