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yeah and if the ISO guy doesn't have enough DR to get himself an open shot? He will either take a contested shot or he will pass. I think we already established earlier in the thread that the ISO player creates the offense, he doesn't necessarily look for his own shot, but he might create for others (passing). This is consistent with what others have said and is consistent with my big men scoring at a much better clip that they should have done in the game above (they mostly had open shots).

Well, if the iso guy doesn't have enough driving, it's not the right offense to run. That's kind of the point of my post - I've seen enough people wondering why inside isolation doesn't get their super stud C with dunkalicious IS a ton of baskets. Now, the other skills are important in any offense, but if your player does not have good driving, running an isolation with him is madness.

One of the thing that do not make sense in the GE right now is that in many cases an open shot has a lower FG% than a guarded shot (depending on the specific defender and the type of shot). So let's put it this way: if your ISO player has very high driving he may be able to consistently get an open shot. Is an open shot going to be more efficient than a guarded shot? Not necessarily as Trainerman has argued repeatedly bringing data and evidence to support his claim (this is particularly evident on lay ups for guards and 3 pointers for big men).

It hasn't made sense for a long time, and specifically three pointers against big men was the examples that came up as an example years ago. It's even more than that, though, as I had a player that was one of my best jump shooters, who never played at a big man spot, who consistently over several seasons shot uncontested jump shots at a lower percentage than other players with far less JS playing the same position, but hit a much higher percentage of contested ones.

You talk about DR and point to the Game Manual as if you're giving any meaningful information. I know for a fact that the defender on my SG in the game had more than 20 OD (and good ID). So the useful information about DR you should provide, if you are able to, is how much DR is needed to overcome 20-10 OD-ID to get an open shot. Even a ballpark figure would do.

Roughly on the order of "more." On everyone. And even then it may not be enough.

If I knew a more specific answer, I'd give that. If I knew why the SG position in Princeton so frequently will put up those 20% shooting days with estimated PP100 over 90 I'd probably answer that too. On that end, I'm just hoping the fixes supposedly coming for outside shooting may at least make things sensible. On isolation, though, it's just more driving - mostly because it's absolutely abysmal if you don't have it.

On isolation, though, it's just more driving - mostly because it's absolutely abysmal if you don't have it.

My guards have equal or more passing than driving. Both of them. I knew they would not be able to beat 19-20 OD, but the quantity of open shots inside suggests that they did feed the bigs (I can tell you both big men have not impressive offensive skills, they are ok, but they would not overpower defenders on their own).

My point here was that ISOs (and specifically Outside ISO) doesn't work well below a certain level against in competitive situations because everybody stacks OD. So going against 20 OD with 16-17 JS, sub 13 JR, 16-17 DR, 15-16 passing and the likes it's not going to yield good results. And a difference of 2 or 3 DR (say 14 to 17) is probably not going to matter in overcoming such high OD.

At the top level (D1, NT) those numbers maybe are more like 18-19 JS, 19-20 DR, 15-17 PA, so a battle against 19-20 OD presumably becomes more balanced. I think Inside ISO is more balanced, but again against good ID, you see the ball often kicked out to the guards who will take a lot of shots (at least this is a common complaint).

And a difference of 2 or 3 DR (say 14 to 17) is probably not going to matter in overcoming such high OD.

Oh, crap, I did forget to mention something that may be of use. The USA offsite had done a lot of statistical analysis some many years back (the guys who did the training project, mind you, not people like me, but real statistician types) and they determined that Driving, as a shot type, was influenced based on DR and IS (to a lesser degree, I think) vs. ID and SB, though sadly I forgot what order those two come into play or if they're equal. The blog and team tools section is pretty much dead, so I can't go back and find the numbers unfortunately.

But yeah, you want the driving against OD because the high OD isn't really involved in defending drives.

Excellent. That's what I was guessing.

Does anyone have any data to back this up?

This is one of my own games running outside ISO: (79200943)
BBstats were only slightly in my favor; his defense was better than my offense but still I won by 13 points. He did play TIE but I believe that is accounted for by the BBstats. Also interestingly he used Outside Box+1 so he was matched up well defensively. I think this game the ISO was effective; if you look at the BBstats, you'd expect a closer outcome. PP100 are in my favor so looking at that the result is consistent with the input. At least here the ISO didn't fail despite a stronger defense.

I think you won because your D was directly effective against his O.

But yeah, you want the driving against OD because the high OD isn't really involved in defending drives.

Well I supposed that explains how big men with high driving and relatively low IS are shooting over 55% from the field against monster ID (see this starter in the alleged stronger D1 in the world (20780199)). Oh wait.

I wonder when you came around on OD being the god skill:(255072.9).

I looked but I haven't found information that ID and not OD stops DR from guards. I always assumed, based on what I read on forums, that a drive from an isolation play on the perimeter or mid-range is not DR vs ID.

Besides even logically that can't be right: if IS defends DR then you would probably need as little as 12-13 DR to overpower guards in Outside ISO no matter what their OD is. My SG also has reasonable DR (higher than 12-13) relatively high IS, if OD was not involved in defending drives and drives are key in ISO tactics, then he would have had a field day instead of shooting 5-23. Note that his actual points were fairly close to his PP100 rating, so it's probably not a fluke.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 3/26/2015 9:09:16 AM

But yeah, you want the driving against OD because the high OD isn't really involved in defending drives.

Well I supposed that explains how big men with high driving and relatively low IS are shooting over 55% from the field against monster ID (see this starter in the alleged stronger D1 in the world (20780199)). Oh wait.

I wonder when you came around on OD being the god skill:(255072.9).

I looked but I haven't found information that ID and not OD stops DR from guards. I always assumed, based on what I read on forums, that a drive from an isolation play on the perimeter or mid-range is not DR vs ID.

Besides even logically that can't be right: if IS defends DR then you would probably need as little as 12-13 DR to overpower guards in Outside ISO no matter what their OD is. My SG also has reasonable DR (higher than 12-13) relatively high IS, if OD was not involved in defending drives and drives are key in ISO tactics, then he would have had a field day instead of shooting 5-23. Note that his actual points were fairly close to his PP100 rating, so it's probably not a fluke.

Okay, I misspoke. The OD determines if it's a contested or uncontested drive, but on uncontested drives OD was statistically insignificant as a factor for success or failure of the actual shot (though of course, as you're well aware, open shots don't necessarily have a better chance of going in).

Always been a fan of OD. Pretty sure I could dig up old posts in one of the "Oh, LI is unstoppable" threads from a few years back where I argued then that OD on big men was the key to stopping LI.

I was able to dig up a post on the offsite from a few years back that was specific to driving and what was found. I wish the whole blog series was archived, because it had a look at what affected success on uncontested and contested shots for inside shots, drives (a separate shot type!), two point jumpers and three point jumpers, plus more in depth look at who ends up guarding where most in zones and team flow vs. OD in terms of uncontested shot generation. At this point I'll just quote:

If player X drives, you compare his offensive skill (I suppose DR) with the opponent's OD to figure out what shot results from the drive. It could be a contested drive (in which we may suppose that player X's DR+IS goes against a defender's SB+ID) or an uncontested drive (in which there is a roll of the dice on a quantity determined by DR+ IS).

how od on bigmen stop Li. when Li is more inside tactics with a dozen types of styles depending on your builds also a fast tactics at that. Od on bigmen stops LP..

Od will not stop LI. A properly made zone can beat LI. which consist of every thing also a good sf,

how od on bigmen stop Li. when Li is more inside tactics with a dozen types of styles depending on your builds also a fast tactics at that. Od on bigmen stops LP..

Od will not stop LI. A properly made zone can beat LI. which consist of every thing also a good sf,

It helps prevent easy uncontested shots, which LI big men convert at exceptionally high rates, and converts them instead into contested shots. It also helps by creating steals (when there are one or more big men who are deficient in ball skills).