BuzzerBeater Forums

Respectfully disagree for two reasons. You can't see which players are on team (as simple as putting those players in bold or highlighted) and as you said there are too many combinations of players that work for a team to say X is enough. I have a player who is arguably better than players on the NT but as of now he is not on the team. Why not? I can't tell from the database why. I know why because I talk to Wozz (and others before him).

You really can learn a lot though from the off-site forum though where we can go into further details on tactical choices and training schemes.

Thanks for saying these things. I have to admit to being ignorant of what is and isn't available to general users on the offsite forum as I don't use it. (that's pretty clear, isn't it?) Therefore, I couldn't speak to what I may have found if I had gone looking for it.

I also appreciate your endorsement of the education level that one could receive if they chose to participate in the off site forum. I still struggle with the idea that there isn't SOME kind of minimum requirement for players that can't be established and, therefore, made public knowledge.

For example, if in this upcoming draft, I get an 18 year old 6' 1" pg with perennial allstar potential who has proficient+ JS/JR/passing/handling, does that make him an automatic "hot" prospect. Or would he be eliminated from consideration because he has atrocious rebounding? what about free throws? How much emphasis is stamina put on a player that young?

These are the kinds of questions that present themselves and (I think) could be answered in a public forum.


*let me stipulate that I'm not looking for an exact discussion of the mythical player I just described. I only threw those stats out there as a jumping off point for discussion.

I'm asking for a general discussion of what the minimum skills are to get a player considered for the squad.

The minimum skills will vary depending on the quality of the class of players coming up as well as the needs of the team. If you have a specific question on one of your players could make the team its as simple as reaching out to the U21 Coach. I know both Coco and Wozzvt are always happy to help and try to constantly reach out to managers that have potential U21 players.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that because I'm a manager who attempts to manage my players effectively and religiously, I can be of value to u21 team without having to be part of the u21 team organization.

What value can you bring if you refuse to simply log onto another site. One of the biggest reasons that discussions of the national teams are kept on seperate forums is to secure the information of our team from foriegn eyes. You've already signed up and its as simple as logging in and posting any questions you have and we would all gladly discuss and answer you.

My choices are participate in the off site forum or don't be involved. In that case, the u21 team loses.

I hope for the sake of our future NT players that you and others will not stick to these beliefs and please come join our discussions. While a lot of the activity on the offsite forum is dedicated to strategies to upcoming matches we all will gladly participaite in debates on training strategies and any such topics you desire. its as simple as starting a new thread.

Nothing I say is meant to be offensive to you Xarn I just feel that it should not be the sole responsibility of the NT Coaches entice and reach out to each manager. They have many responsibilities and manage them to the best of their responsibilites. If you see an area in which they can approve please suggest them either here, on the NT forums or feel free to BBmail me any time as I'm sure we all want to improve the team in anyway we can.

Edit:

For example, if in this upcoming draft, I get an 18 year old 6' 1" pg with perennial allstar potential who has proficient+ JS/JR/passing/handling, does that make him an automatic "hot" prospect. Or would he be eliminated from consideration because he has atrocious rebounding? what about free throws? How much emphasis is stamina put on a player that young?

The skills of a player coming out of a draft do not matter as much as the training they recieve from the ages of 18-21. As shown by the first post in this thread some of the best prospects are ruined by bad training and some players not even noticed make the team. That is due to the managers effort to communicate and train efficiently.



Last edited by FatCurry at 2/28/2010 2:24:34 PM

What value can you bring if you refuse to simply log onto another site

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on this. I see it as simple but vital: I will train my players.

If they have u21 value and are trained properly - in a manner that is conducive to the u21 team - then that should be seen as extremely valuable to the u21 community.

I also have to disagree with you completely that a player's stats at the time he's drafted aren't important. My guess is that a player's skills at the time of draft are at least 50% of his ability to get to the u21 team. If he's starting from the right point AND he's trained the right way THEN he can be an u21 player. But I seriously doubt we can have one without the other.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that last part.

The reason why you have not "found" Diehl is because he has played as a SF.

What value can you bring if you refuse to simply log onto another site

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on this. I see it as simple but vital: I will train my players.

If they have u21 value and are trained properly - in a manner that is conducive to the u21 team - then that should be seen as extremely valuable to the u21 community.

I also have to disagree with you completely that a player's stats at the time he's drafted aren't important. My guess is that a player's skills at the time of draft are at least 50% of his ability to get to the u21 team. If he's starting from the right point AND he's trained the right way THEN he can be an u21 player. But I seriously doubt we can have one without the other.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that last part.

You're correct that both are required, but I think what people are trying to say is that beyond a fairly basic cut-off (i.e. "u21 prospects should at the least be 18yr old and have a 5k salary or better after the draft" or something along those lines) there really aren't a lot of broadly applicable guidelines anyone can give you about specific skill requirements because it's very hard to say anything definitive that early in the process.

Does a guard need to be drafted at respectable OD to compete on the u21 team, 3-4 seasons from now? Could he start with mediocre OD? Could you get away with inept OD if you focused on making him more of an offensive focused player who could be used by the u21 for some extra scoring off the bench? What if you just trained OD really hard for four seasons? There's so many possibilities for how you might train a player, what his prospective role on the team may be, and even what sorts of skills/players the u21 may need four seasons from now that it's really difficult to ask the managers to come up with guidelines for specific skills, especially at such an early time point.

And even if the managers did cave in and decide to throw out some specific skill cutoffs for 18 year olds fresh out of the draft, they would probably either be so low/broad as to be fairly meaningless, or high enough that a half dozen people would be on the forums here disputing an absolute requirement for 6 OD at draft time because if you train them so and so, then they could still do such and such, etc.

Paraphrasing what's already been said by several other posters, I think it's totally fair and probably the only practical solution for the managers to say something like:

"We're always here to help you, we'll gladly answer any emails/questions and go over your prospects in depth with you, we have a lot of good discussion on the off-site forums where we talk about this stuff too, but it's difficult for us to make specific guidelines for general 'prospects' and if you're flat out refusing to even consider visiting the off-site forums or emailing us, there's not much else we can really do here."

The reality is that it probably takes a lot more effort to train a guy well for four seasons than it does to reach out on an off-site forum occasionally, so personally I don't understand your reluctance to use the off-site forum if you are interested in seeing one of your prospects on the u21 team. If you just feel like it'd be a nice bonus to make u21 but really just want to focus more on what's best for your team, then just train however works best for yourself, don't worry too much about the u21/NT community, and if by their 21st year your players are good enough then 'hey, sweet deal' and somebody will already be contacting you about calling them up probably.

If u21 is a goal for you, the managers seem to be saying that this is a two-way street and they're willing to help but it's gonna take at least enough effort on your part to visit the off-site forums or send an email.

Xarn,

in my experience the best way to gauge if you have a player who might fit is to take a look at the roster. Unless you have a special player, he likely won't make until he is 21. Take a look at the salaries and if he is approaching those levels start to ask questions.

Now that the salaries have been readjusted I'm not sure that this is as good of a guide as it was in the past. Its still somewhat helpful, but its not the exact science it once was.

I'm more curious as to the level of trainer that most managers have who own U21 or even the "big boy" NT players? For example. . . do we have a good idea on what is more impacting between the potential and the level of trainer? I know that we ideally pursue the highest potential players and highest level of trainer that we can but we only have so much money to invest. . .so is it worth my time to go after a world class trainer over an exceptional trainer? This might be the difference of 500k or more from what I've seen. Were I to invest that money on a single player I might find that I can get a higher potential player with better skills, but that wouldn't necessarily benefit the US team as I'm limiting the pace of his training?

Have we consider this as a reason as to why some players are training slower? Ultimately its up to the coach and their ability to differentiate between the value of single position and multi-position training, but there must also some speculation as to how valuable an exceptional trainer is over a superior trainer. If two players of equal skill, potential, and training schedule are monitored over the course of a season, can we accurately deduce the impact of the training level?

Also any volunteers to test this theory out?

I'm cash strapped right now as I fight for staving relegation to D4, if I do get relegated I might just want to test this out.

If you don't want to log into an external website (which I think is a rather absurd constraint, but I'll give it to you), you have the option of BB-mailing me or Wozz, or the future U21 coach: if you don't BB-mail with a total non-starter (and sometimes even in those cases) or a foreign player (that happens too), I will reply with a fairly detailed account of possible training strategies.

I really, honestly, do not see the problem.

There's no problem and logging into the offsite forum isn't a big deal or huge bother. However, I don't want the crux of my argument to get lost in any of the banter about whether or not I, Xarn will use that site. And maybe I need to soften my message by reaffirming that you have been extremely helpful and willing to discuss specific players any time I have asked. albeit, I haven't asked often. You're doing a fantastic job in that regard.

However, I do hope that somehow we can find a way to engage the average user, here, in this forum. I really believe there is value in making the u21 team just a little more transparent by engaging the community here in the game that we're all addicted to playing. Discussing things that are not trade secrets can only improve the visibility and interest level in the u21 team. In turn, you might start seeing better quality players at your disposal or, at least, an increase in the depth of your positions. Is there a place for an offsite forum, a safe place where you can discuss the current roster, matches and strategies? You bet.


Is there a way to engage those who are willing to listen and willing to train without requiring that level of activity? I do not know, but I hope so.