BuzzerBeater Forums

No it is you that do not get it.
You don't grow if you are in a competitive league every year

You make money, but you are also spending money!

I'll explain again...
Player's salary rising means that the team is GROWING.
Having a balanced NBA team will not be as strong as having an-economic-balanced third league team.

They are both playing in a competative league for the players they currently have.

You see here 2 things,on one hand my team declines cause i loose more money then i earn every season. Even with a salary you couldn't compete with my team, cause the rich team will spend money for more salary expensiv players instead of paying higher salaries during the week.

1) It proves nothing.
A team that will just enter your league will be balanced as well, but with players that will cost much less, and by that it means that their quality will be much lower.
In order to compete (just for staying it the league) they will need to invest the same mount of money that other teams has on this league.
How can they do it? They need to save a lot of money to get to the roster's value that you have.
They just cannot do it. It will take them ages.

Let's try something else - can you bring the amount of seasons each team in your league (on last season) has been in BB and the place they've reached (on that season)?

A team that will just enter your league will be balanced as well, but with players that will cost much less, and by that it means that their quality will be much lower.

which mean he loose less money, or gain more.

How can they do it? They need to save a lot of money to get to the roster's value that you have.

they would need to do it even more, to get the same quality with my salarys. So a cap wouldn't help. The exchange of the roster to adjust to the new salary cap, would be even more expensiv for him cause he could rarely keep some player, who he had in div 2 with a div 2 cao,

They just cannot do it. It will take them ages.

imho the championship boost is pretty high, which makes it pretty hard that right(or easy to keep the superior position). But to compete with the rest, and stay ind ivision isn't that ocomplicated or impossible as you say.

A team that will just enter your league will be balanced as well, but with players that will cost much less, and by that it means that their quality will be much lower.

which mean he loose less money, or gain more.

A lossing team will get less money from tickets and such.
A team that is new also would have much less seats to have "Arena size" big enough to have the same income.

How can they do it? They need to save a lot of money to get to the roster's value that you have.

they would need to do it even more, to get the same quality with my salarys. So a cap wouldn't help. The exchange of the roster to adjust to the new salary cap, would be even more expensiv for him cause he could rarely keep some player, who he had in div 2 with a div 2 cap

Sorry, but again I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.
1) When getting to Div-I from Div-II he will have the cap of Div-I.
2) This is only a suggestion to handle the problem, we can bring other suggestions to the bigger issue disucssed here - "making the game competative for new users" - but first we need to discuss whether it is needed.
3) In any case, a cap will assist here, as the new team in that league will probably be on the incoming side of the Soft-Cap's tax, as they will probably have much cheaper roster.

They just cannot do it. It will take them ages.

imho the championship boost is pretty high, which makes it pretty hard that right(or easy to keep the superior position). But to compete with the rest, and stay ind ivision isn't that ocomplicated or impossible as you say.

So, bring the information (described before) for the worst 8 teams in your league (or any other). The names are not important of course.

1) When getting to Div-I from Div-II he will have the cap of Div-I.

ok again an example, lets lock at this player:

Jump Shot: strong Jump Range: respectable
Outside Def.: strong Handling: respectable
Driving: average Passing: strong
Inside Shot: tremendous Inside Def.: sensational
Rebounding: prodigious Shot Blocking: mediocre
Stamina: average Free Throw: respectable

Experience: strong

i think a good starter for a div 2 team with a salary cap cause he ask for 50k salary. In div 1 he would compete against 100k salary center with cap, who are also maxed in value for minimal salary from the rich team. Now you had to get a new one, and probadly you had do do it on all positions. While actually you can have a more fluent promotion, and maybe add 1-2 stars instead of replacing an salary optimised team.

3) In any case, a cap will assist here, as the new team in that league will probably be on the incoming side of the Soft-Cap's tax, as they will probably have much cheaper roster.

why now and not before? I have trouble to understand it, especially since a hard cap will only raise the income of the rich team who excell it.

2) This is only a suggestion to handle the problem, we can bring other suggestions to the bigger issue disucssed here - "making the game competative for new users" - but first we need to discuss whether it is needed.

how about, giving each team every season a standard lineup, don't allow transfer. So everyone handling the same, and can only develop through tactic and training during the season. Every other system, you don't come in one league and have a 1/16 chanche of being champion. I mean a managing game, is about making the right choiches to be stronger in the future, ensuring this makes it nearly impossible to give everybody the same chanches at the begin of the season.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 11/4/2011 6:42:34 AM

i think a good starter for a div 2 team with a salary cap cause he ask for 50k salary. In div 1 he would compete against 100k salary center with cap, who are also maxed in value for minimal salary from the rich team. Now you had to get a new one, and probadly you had do do it on all positions. While actually you can have a more fluent promotion, and maybe add 1-2 stars instead of replacing an salary optimised team.

Sorry, but again I'm not sure what you are saying.
1) In any real-leagues, when a team is promoted it will need to make a big roster change.
2) That 50K player, will probably will be a great backup in the his new DIV.
3) He may have a very intense "summer" replacing more players than current system (and as I wrote above, I doubt that, but he will have more chance staying in that league due to the cap system, which is much more mportant.

3) In any case, a cap will assist here, as the new team in that league will probably be on the incoming side of the Soft-Cap's tax, as they will probably have much cheaper roster.

why now and not before? I have trouble to understand it, especially since a hard cap will only raise the income of the rich team who excell it.

Ahh? the soft-cap is defined upon sallary or player's value assesment or both.
A rich team will have better players, and by that players that cost more.
Hence they will be on the paying side.

Everyone tries to maximize skills-to-money.
More money does allow you to maximize it more, but just to have better players (that costs more money...).

2) This is only a suggestion to handle the problem, we can bring other suggestions to the bigger issue disucssed here - "making the game competative for new users" - but first we need to discuss whether it is needed.

how about, giving each team every season a standard lineup, don't allow transfer. So everyone handling the same, and can only develop through tactic and training during the season. Every other system, you don't come in one league and have a 1/16 chanche of being champion.

This is not about a new team in DIV XXX taking the cup and beating the hell out of a team which is at DIV-1.
It is about the chance to someday, and not in a new era, that first team could compete with agianst the second team.

2) That 50K player, will probably will be a great backup in the his new DIV.

he was 20min backup at the last BBB, and not that unsuccesful ;) Secondary bring a lot into the game, thats why a salry cap work more for more multiskill then for making money equal.

Everyone tries to maximize skills-to-money.
More money does allow you to maximize it more, but just to have better players (that costs more money...).

today you have the decision to get more primarys, for a cheap price and paying more for salarys or buying more expensiv secondaries to have a lower paycheck. second option will be gone, with a salary cap, even when this is the possibility most team who promotes and then be competive choose(and still earned money, not championship teams but not in fight against relegation also)

Let's try something else - can you bring the amount of seasons each team in your league (on last season) has been in BB and the place they've reached (on that season)?

I don't have the time to compile such information, but I have previously collected some information about the starting times of the teams (mostly for the highest league in Suomi, SM-Koris), which you may find interesting. Check the links.

Translation:
Kausi == Season
k == short for season

Season 13 stats: (155611.1)
Season 13 stats: (155611.6) (same as first link, includes II division)
Season 17 stats: (155611.20) (includes new teams for s18 and the div II finalists in s17)

In season 13 the median team of top league levels in Suomi:
season 4 / div IV ...... SM-Koris
season 4 / div IV ...... division II
season 6 / div IV ...... regular season winners in division III

In season 17 the median team in SM-Koris was still from s4/IV, but the average team has got younger. (Of course, the teams are actually 4 seasons older now... but you get the idea.)

In addition, here's a plot of the cumulative wins in regular season for the top 17 teams in SM-Koris history (teams with more than 50 wins in regular season). There is some nice info on how new teams have slowly gained ground in the top league (you can find the starting times/league levels of most of these teams in the linked messages): (http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/2540/smkorisulwinsinre...).

Conclusion: It's a rocky road to the top, but it can be done.

Last edited by GM-WallyOop at 11/4/2011 12:35:16 PM

Let's start from the information I've asked you kindly to bring.
When someone is evading from answering a question, twice, I know that I got to something.

Well, I took a look at your league you played last year (just the "great 8" - your conference), and wanted to see whether I had reason to bring this suggestion. More precisely - is it true that the current system does not allow competativeness.

I was totaly "suprised" to learn that in this group none had been newer than teams who had been playing from season 4 !!!
Although there where 13 seasons from that season, none had been able to reach this league!

I'll say that this alone proves my case of a great need for a competativeness system.

[I'll answer you last message in a separate message]

2) That 50K player, will probably will be a great backup in the his new DIV.

he was 20min backup at the last BBB, and not that unsuccesful ;) Secondary bring a lot into the game, thats why a salry cap work more for more multiskill then for making money equal.

Everyone tries to maximize skills-to-money.
More money does allow you to maximize it more, but just to have better players (that costs more money...).

today you have the decision to get more primarys, for a cheap price and paying more for salarys or buying more expensiv secondaries to have a lower paycheck. second option will be gone, with a salary cap, even when this is the possibility most team who promotes and then be competive choose(and still earned money, not championship teams but not in fight against relegation also)

No it will not happen, as economy is always about balance.
When the "demand" to a specific kind of players rises, but their "supply" does not change then their price is higher.
When their price is higher, the decision returns...
Pay more for getting a specific player on an auction, or paying less on that player and then paying more due to the cap.

In addition, this cap can be defined by other means - Value of a player, Transfer's cost, etc.