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but the problem is the much attention we have to spend on economic management...I know that on a managerial game is important (I play several other managerial online game), but not at this level...

many people tanking, and BBs can't punish them, because in France or Italy is necessary to survive in high divisions...however they can give advantages to reach playoffs, and not to be 5th or be relegated...maybe prizes for playoff spots could be a solution for make better reach playoffs and not tanking...
but if they don't insert money in game, there will be always the same problems...

look at Spain, they had 5 season ago over 5k users, now 3k...because the are lame of that...

On tanking, I agree with you.

The problem with tanking is that it is a way of bypassing economic management !
Overspend, tank, overspend, tank, overspend, tank... And tanking is today with no doubt the most efficient way to run a team. I doubt the game owners wanted this. If tanking becomes widespread it may even slightly disrupt the economy.

But you have probably read the news. Bbs are discussing amongst themselves if a modification is needed or not.
Users have been vocal against tanking for a few seasons now.
BBs are only slowly with much precaution starting to envisage to have a chat about it one day...

So season 20, they discuss if a change is needed.
Being optimistic, season 21 news will be that they have decided a change is needed and will think about what kind of new rules set will be implemented.
Season 22 news, we will be informed that they need to work on the site performance that is degrading and they regret to have to postpon the release of several awesome new features.
Season 23 news, changes will be announced that will take place in season 26 so that everyone is warned in advance.

By 2014, rules against tanking may be in effect...

Why did Spain userbase shrink like that ? I recall they were up to 6k.

but if for last 4 seasons 5th place are better than playing playoffs, it's normal that teams don't want be competitive, but search the 5th place, tanking in last games...

however, in Spain I know that many team newbie leaves because was impossible for them resist in high division, because too much teams are at limit of salary, and they have no possibilities to make money...and if you stay ten seasons in V (or VI in this case), you decide to leave because it's not funny...

ps: this happened in Spain, because was the biggest community...later it will happens to Italy and France too, i'm sure...it's the reason of users don't increases, but remain the same, because newbies arrive and leave in 2 or 3 seasons..

Last edited by zecchin at 6/5/2012 4:25:07 PM

after first 4 season I have a 10k arena, because I spent my money on it...but I have to stay in V division, because I coundn't spend much money for players, because I haven't that...you, after 5 seasons, have a 12k arena and have a -2M transfer balance, because you can be promoted spending less than me on salaries, depending of competitiveness of your leagues...

Seriously, you joined the game in season 5, and promoted out of your V series in season 11. And here's the ratings you put up in your home game in the finals:

motion/ 3-2 zone
outside scoring: average(medium)
inside scoring: awful (high)
perimeter defense: average(medium)
inside defense: mediocre (low)
rebounding: mediocre (medium)
offensive flow: inept (high)

I don't know how much of season 5 you were around, so we'll just look at that as being your sixth complete season in BB. I joined after the All-star game in season 15(!), and in my first home game in the finals in season 16, here's my ratings:
motion/man to man
outside scoring: mediocre (high)
inside scoring: pitiful(high)
perimeter defense: respectable (medium)
inside defense: average(low)
rebounding: inept (low)
offensive flow: inept (high)

And by that point, I had spent under $400k on the TL over the course of a season and a half, while I had salary right around 60k/week. I'm sorry, but if you're going to talk about my roster and the competitive levels of the leagues I was in and then it turns out it took you 6 seasons to put together a roster that put together even those pathetic ratings, you shouldn't be speaking about the economy holding you back or competitiveness between our leagues.

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 6/5/2012 4:31:07 PM

Yes, it's natural. IMO, it is one of the remaining problems with the economy, the distribution of revenues.
It has been said countless times, successful teams should be better rewarded than less successful teams. But it is difficult and needs finetuning so as not to give successful teams an unsurpassable edge over newer teams.

I favor league position bonus, rethinking of arena receipts and free tickets for PO games (fans love me for that :p ), I'd do TV fees for PO teams, QF/SF/Finals.

and if you stay ten seasons in V (or VI in this case), you decide to leave because it's not funny...

True ! Especially when you realize you actually have very few options.
But I truly believe the situation has improved in that regard.

France has lost quite a lot, I think it went close to 3.5k. But really, I don't know why it went down.

because you played since season 6 (I play since season 5), and you know that level of V divisions increases a lot...but tv contract (except for the modific of season 11) remain the same, but salaries to win are more and more than season 6...so, as we can save money to stay in IV or III, new teams can't make it actually...so they leave...

@hrudey: I think I explained with this to you too the reasons of my valuations level when i've been promoted...in 5 seasons changes much things...level increased soon...

I will elaborate on what Perpete says.
hrudey, you can't compare the 2.

The game was different, many changes have been made, the economy is completely different hence why all these talks about how it was before...
In season 5, very few players had been trained, the few of them young and well trained were a pricy commodity. Players were far from as skilled as today. I am not even sure the potential feature was already introduced...

Players we routinely buy 200k today would sometimes cost 2M at the time. They were unaffordable for new teams.
Revenues were lower. Salaries were higher, you probably know that, salaries have decreased, I think by more than 30% overall.
So today, skills are much cheaper, I welcome these changes, it helps new teams to buy skills quickly.

It took me several seasons to afford to buy a player with a skill in the double-digit you know :)
I had a few but I had to train them myself.

So don't compare the ratings, you weren't around and it was very different, don't judge too quickly.
Italy was notoriously the most competitive league at the time, even in the lower leagues, this is true.
For a long time, USA was only around 1.5k users and not so competitive. It evolves over time, now the USA is very competitive too. Just to point out that the game evolves, situations change, the environment changes. Careful with the assumptions.

It's quite easier to put nice ratings nowadays than 10 or 15 seasons ago. With 400k$, you buy players clearly better than what you can buy at this time. Training can't do everything and when what can be bought is shit, it's shit. Now you can buy, really good players for nothing.

No need to look at zecchin ratings, you can look at any team from Saison 5/10.

If I was comparing season 5 to season 16, sure. He promoted in season 11, and my players were mostly bought in season 15. But I suppose if we want to compare apples to apples, I just looked at the team that promoted before him in season 10, the models. They got the team in season 8 and was 7-15, while Alley Up was 18-4. That's the same nation, same league, same time. Next season, The Models are 18-4 and 3rd place, while Alley Up was 13-9 and in fourth. Season 10 and we see the Models at 20-2, while Alley Up is 17-5, and the Models go on to promote fairly easily.

Now, I don't know what the salaries were like for the Models or what their transfer history looked like since they went bot, but if he can't be much more than a speed bump to someone who started three seasons later than him in the exact same conference of the exact same league, I'm not going to consider his suggestion that it's the economy holding him back as being the most accurate conclusion from the available evidence.

I will elaborate on what Perpete says.
hrudey, you can't compare the 2.
[...]
So don't compare the ratings, you weren't around and it was very different, don't judge too quickly.
Italy was notoriously the most competitive league at the time, even in the lower leagues, this is true.
For a long time, USA was only around 1.5k users and not so competitive. It evolves over time, now the USA is very competitive too. Just to point out that the game evolves, situations change, the environment changes. Careful with the assumptions.

Okay, I stand corrected on the direct comparison. I responded already with a correction that's more in line, and while your thoughtful and informative reply deserves more than this brief message, I am leaving work so this will have to do.

because you played since season 6 (I play since season 5), and you know that level of V divisions increases a lot...but tv contract (except for the modific of season 11) remain the same, but salaries to win are more and more than season 6...so, as we can save money to stay in IV or III, new teams can't make it actually...so they leave...

In a large game world like Italy, at every level, teams don't make money anymore. Not only in D.V.
My league weekly revenue is negative and it has been for several seasons now. It used to be +20k or more.
Teams reach the team salary soft cap.

Obviously, it is going to be hard when you start in D.V but it is easier than before, because skills are cheaper and with more skills, it is easier to make a difference with a well-thought out distribution of skills.
And in higher leagues, teams have it more difficult to renew their roster and sometimes have to downgrade it if they have mismanaged. I see it happening around me. Newer teams catch them up.
It was harder for you to get out of D.V and escape demotion from D.IV than it is now.
Of course, it will always take several seasons to rise through two divisions, you can only expect this from this kind of game.
You did it, you have achieved more than me.