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Sorry Phil - here I have to disagree.

As you have to take into consideration this is partly an economic simulator you have to in my opinion try to stay ahead of the curve of your competitors.

Out muscling on the TL is one option but rather a short term view as the money i feel can be put to better use elsewhere (the stadium). It is of course relevant which division your team is but if you can keep chipping away at buying new seats (relative to your competitors) and get them paid for as quick as you can.

Now i am not saying that this is easy in div3 or below and perhaps it is wiser to look at optimizing training / draft picks but sooner rather than later you have to bite the bullet and go arena.

If you arent making as much weekly profit as your rivals then you will slowly lose ground.. that profit amasses from training/draftees winning to gain more attendence and then ultimately revenue from attendence.

I purposely aimed to build the biggest stadium in my country asap to ensure i could get a $100k per week head start on the teams around me.... even $20k pw adds up....

Now take the example further...

I have 17k seats my nearest rival 12k - I make 100k more per week.. his next 1-1.5mil has to go on seats to match my stadium... the curve is enormous... I cant work out why some of the Div 1 teams in certain countries havent figured this out....the ones that have are laughing all the way to the bank and to the TL... just resist spending on the TL and get building - its a no brainer.

having said this the strategy is different in the lower leagues but the principle remains the same.

This seems like a nice discussion...
I've been looking to build an extra part to my stadium, but the cost is quite high, especially for a starter. On the other hand, there are no overhead costs, so if I want, I can increase my stadium one seat at the time.

Increasing the price for the seats is indeed an option, but also in my opinion, it is a short term solution. In my case, it can be the best solution, until I have a financial overview (should be by the end of the season.)

I also need to stay ahead to some of my collegues, who invested their 300k in one player from the TL.

Okay, fair point, let me respond:

How much did your expansion cost you? 12,000 extra seats clocks in at a cool $4.06 million. It's going to take a long time for you to recover those costs and remember, until you do recover the costs, you haven't made a cent off your expansion (and there's no way your investment has paid off yet). And you aren't filling the arena yet! In the long run, you'll make your money back, but that's a very long run indeed.

I guess the reason you are able to expand so aggressively (EDIT: besides making $6 million profit on the TL) is because you began and continue to be in the top division of your nation and so your revenue, and potential revenue, is much greater than for a team in Div III. So in acknowledging that the game is partly an economic simulator, teams need to look for ways to increase income without increasing expenditure and ticket prices are the most effective way to do that.

This is why I am recommending increasing ticket prices. It's by no means a short-term solution since you can keep increasing them if you keep selling out the arena. Once prices have maxed out, then you can justify expanding the arena because otherwise you'll earn no more revenue from the arena (increased revenue for no expenditure is better than spending $48,000 to earn $3,000 per home game).

Just think, Superfly, what you could have done with an extra $2 million. And you crow about pulling down $100,000 per week in extra arena revenue weekly. It'll take you two seasons to make that much money back. If I were in your division, I'd be cackling with glee at the amount of money you have spent on things that don't affect team performance directly.

In the fullness of time, expansion is good. But not for teams who need money for other things.



Last edited by LA-The Phil at 4/1/2008 8:57:13 AM

I agree - there is no right or wrong - each team has to decide what is right for them and make decisions accordingly. My profit is mainly down to training... I guess everyone has built up training profit whether visible on their TL history or hidden within the increase stats they get during their matches. I have simply decided to cash in on certain players now i think the market is peaking.

My expansion although expensive and although im paying off at a slower speed, still has to be attacked at some point. To get from 5000 seats to 20,000 will cost everyone around 5million. Even if i am only 1million into paying that off thats 5 i have outlayed and got 1 back. As soon as I have recouped my 5 I am on my way to clear profit. If another team takes 2 extra seasons to outlay the 5mil then another 2 to recoup their outlay you keep cackling with glee whilst i rack up a ridiculous bank balance.

Also as wages increase I still have the capacity to eat away faster at my outlay compared to a season or so when my wages will be catching up my weekly outlay... this is the other big factor - for teams planning on operating with ten 6k wage players for the next few seasons fine they can build slowly but surely.

I imagine Div2 teams will have to be forking out 150k salaries next season to remain competitive.. now do you regret not buying seats? To make a profit each week on these type of salaries (not to mention staff) and accumalate a) enough to expand to 20k seats & b) recoup your outlay will take AGES.

I do agree raising prices can help but this is such a short term view. You have to build now whilst the salary to remain competitive is so low vs what it will be in a season or 2 from now.

I will re-iterate to me this is a NO brainer!!

Your point is clearer now. Expanding early can help long term for the reasons of salary, and to get it done, as you point out. Here's the rub: my team has a salary of around $60,000 and I'm 15-1 this season. When my stadium sells out on Saturday (which it will) I'll earn over $100,000. And next month, I'll increase my prices, still be selling out and have spent nothing in the process. So, no, I don't regret not buying seats.

Believe me, I will be expanding soon, especially if I get to the EBBL, which is where such huge expansions are justified.

Last edited by LA-The Phil at 4/1/2008 9:22:16 AM

If you can win your league without the need to invest in players what are you waiting for??

Lets take into consideration 2 other factors... inflation and deflation of player prices...

a) we could all have to spend loads more on players soon so if you dont have a stable training regime then sorry the bottom of the ladder is now out of reach for a lot of people.... (time it takes to make decent weekly profits - slower)

b) you train your players to find that you can only sell at the price you paid...(time it takes to make decent profits - slower)

better to have them and not use them than to not have them and need them!

I agree with you. I'd like to expand soon but until I'm totally satisfied wih my roster, I won't be dong so and I'm not going to expand before I reach them EBBL (or max out my prices, if I fail to promote) because I am going to need to improve my team further whether I promote or not.

Ultimately, the ideal solution is a bit from column A (expansion) accompanied by a bit from column B (increased ticket prices) according to where you are in the league system, what your team is doing now, what your player needs are, how much cash you have, how well you fill your arena...

Admittedly, I wouldn't have expanded as aggressively as you have but then I wouldn't have step-traded either, so really your economy-first approach is a win-win situation for you and will, long-term, provide you with a substantial financial advantage over your opponents. Then again, not everyone can follow your system, so the opportunities are limited, and your opponents may experience a brief competitive advantage over you (perhaps. If they're good).

For new teams - like the OP - rapidly building up the arena at the expense of obtaining good trainees and good position players is probably not the best move. Or so I contend

i agree that expansion may not be his immediate no1 choice today but i also contend he may be wiser hoarding cash until his path becomes clearer. just because money doesnt go into stadium doesnt mean it has to go into players.

Anyhow, the OP (and anyone else reading this!) has a strong insight to the pros and cons of arena expansion from 2 different perspectives.

I think we have almost exhausted this subject... and I am now off to bed! Goodnight!

Well done guys,

If there would be a discussion like that around every topic, all newbies would be very happy (if they take the time to read it.)

As I see it now, for a starter, an expansion of the arena is not a good option, financially, it should be considered lateron.

Nevertheless, I already gave the assignment to install 3 luxury boxes. Just to have them (I need my proper seat in the stadium).
In a next move, beginning of May, I will adapt the ticket prices according to the demand of the seats, untill I'm almost at the maximum.

The large advantage is that, theoretically, you can adjust your stadium one seat at the time, maybe it's good, when having financial reserve, to expand your stadium a little after each home game...

I had +600k in economy, I wanted to do something with this money and I had 2 optins:

1. Buy a crapy player on TL for 500-600k and then train him for some 1 season and then maybe sell for better price, but who knows maybe till that time the market prices will go down, as I already have a good young trainees I decided better to expand my stadium for some 1300seats and spend these 500k, anyway there is no arena upkeep and my 7000 arena in last game was almost full with average ticket prices....So I decide better no to rise prices but increase my stadium....so spectators and my fans will better like the prices and fullfill the stadium.....because with bigger prices I had aproximately 120k per match, now when I lovered a little bit prices I had almost full stadium and 150k per match....so I will let to stay the prices the same and increase the stadium......and hope that it will also be full....:)))

GM-SuperflyGuy & LA-ThePhil both gave a lot of good information in the midst of their disagreement.

Specific to your case:
You're selling out your lower tier & courtside seats on a regular basis. I notice that you've already tried to increase the price of these seats, but were a tad late, so the change won't take effect until May 1st (around the time of the playoff finals this season). You're also adding a few luxury boxes, which is good IMO.

In the meantime, you may want to consider further expansion. The main reason I will suggest expansion to you (or anyone else reading this) at this time is because in a bit more than a month, the season will end and your Season Ticket Holders will be updated (most likely will grow by about 50% or more).

The rule of thumb that I use regarding expansion of my arena is to only build about half the seats I can afford. This leaves a safety net of cash to cover salaries and expenses while the expansion takes place (usually takes about 1-1.5 weeks to add the seats). Remember also that after expanding, each seat you build needs to sell about 15-20 times before it pays for itself.

Regarding raising ticket prices, my advice is to make very minor adjustments. You're stuck with these prices for a full month after they go into effect, so be careful. I've found that it is best to raise prices by around 10% or less. If you're selling out lower tier seats at $35, try $38-$40 next month. The most sensitive seats to raise prices on are bleachers, so I'd recommend going $1 at a time in either direction ($2 is about a 20% hike, and I saw a dramatic decrease in bleacher seats sold after raising the price from $12 to $14). I'd also recommend lowering the price you currently have on luxury boxes if they don't sell once they're complete.

All-in-all, a quick check of your arena page makes most of this post seem redundant. But I'd still recommend putting some additional investment into courtside seats, as well as some lower-tier.

Best of luck!

Last edited by darykjozef at 4/3/2008 12:36:15 PM