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Bugs, bugs, bugs > Princeton tactic description is incorrect

Princeton tactic description is incorrect

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220216.4 in reply to 220216.3
Date: 6/19/2012 12:22:17 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
209209
I think it's safe to assume he counted "driving layups" and the likes in the IS (inside shots) category.

Personally, if I were to assume that the GE works as intended, I would propose that many users use this tactic incorrectly.

Just like playing "look inside" with 5 shooting guards isn't going to give you a lot of inside shot attempts, people who lack in passing across the lineup may find it difficult to hit cutters and get to the rim, settling for mid-range jumpers instead.

No idea how the statistics were gathered, but I would discard scrimmages and only study teams who use the princeton offense successfully.

My guess is that you need a good to great level of JR/PA/DR across the team (not just a monster PG) to run it effectively.

"Air is beautiful, yet you cannot see it. It's soft, yet you cannot touch it. Air is a little like my brain." - Jean-Claude Van Damme
This Post:
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220216.5 in reply to 220216.4
Date: 6/19/2012 12:30:06 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
I think it's safe to assume he counted "driving layups" and the likes in the IS (inside shots) category.

Personally, if I were to assume that the GE works as intended, I would propose that many users use this tactic incorrectly.

Just like playing "look inside" with 5 shooting guards isn't going to give you a lot of inside shot attempts, people who lack in passing across the lineup may find it difficult to hit cutters and get to the rim, settling for mid-range jumpers instead.

No idea how the statistics were gathered, but I would discard scrimmages and only study teams who use the princeton offense successfully.

My guess is that you need a good to great level of JR/PA/DR across the team (not just a monster PG) to run it effectively.


Yes, I'm pretty certain those shot types were lumped together - I was just wondering if it were possible to distill out the drives to compare that vs. "regular" inside shots. My thoughts on the tactic itself are probably quite similar to yours - if all the players have good HN/PA/DR, perhaps you'll see more uncontested driving shots and three pointers, and fewer contested midrange jumpers. In any case, I am extremely delighted to see wozz posting this data and to see that it's going to be investigated.

This Post:
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220216.6 in reply to 220216.4
Date: 6/19/2012 12:31:07 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
926926
Exactly my thoughts, teams commit to LI with their whole team but I don´t think people dothe same with Princeton. LI teams have lots of passing on their guards to get the ball to the scorers where as teams that run princeton rarely have high passing levels on their center or PF.

This Post:
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220216.7 in reply to 220216.3
Date: 6/19/2012 1:05:56 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
228228
Yeah, I lumped drives + IS together because both showed basically the same thing (base has 11.8% DR, 26.8% IS; princeton has 8.3% DR, 16% IS). (edit: I also lumped them together because the manual's description doesn't distinguish them... i.e., whether one or the other or both should be affected by this tactic).

I also included those little "fade away" and similar shots as IS, not JS, since that's how the match viewer commentary classifies them.

Last edited by wozzvt at 6/19/2012 1:08:03 PM

From: Manouche

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220216.8 in reply to 220216.7
Date: 6/20/2012 5:00:21 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
699699
I would argue that if it is confirmed that a very large number of Princetons are played by underdogs against much stronger teams then the data is flawed as it is not collected under the same conditions than, say, Motion/RnG.

From: wozzvt

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220216.10 in reply to 220216.8
Date: 7/3/2012 9:07:54 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
228228
I would argue that if it is confirmed that a very large number of Princetons are played by underdogs against much stronger teams then the data is flawed as it is not collected under the same conditions than, say, Motion/RnG.

I of course can't completely speak to this point, or to the point that people may be playing the "wrong" players for Princeton. But, in my observations, I would suggest that the effects of a non-ideal lineup (other than playing a player completely out of position, such as a PG at C), and the effect of being a big underdog, don't actually change the shot *distribution* that much (though it certainly changes the frequency at which those shots are made).

This Post:
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220216.11 in reply to 220216.10
Date: 7/3/2012 9:27:35 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
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I would argue that if it is confirmed that a very large number of Princetons are played by underdogs against much stronger teams then the data is flawed as it is not collected under the same conditions than, say, Motion/RnG.

I of course can't completely speak to this point, or to the point that people may be playing the "wrong" players for Princeton. But, in my observations, I would suggest that the effects of a non-ideal lineup (other than playing a player completely out of position, such as a PG at C), and the effect of being a big underdog, don't actually change the shot *distribution* that much (though it certainly changes the frequency at which those shots are made).


Perhaps there's some influence on, for example, low JR on the big men in those lineups, which might lead them to pass up three point shots that more purpose-built Princeton big men might take. But if we were to wait until we had enough matches with players built for Princeton, I'm not sure our granchildren would find this thread. ;)

From: Manouche

This Post:
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220216.12 in reply to 220216.10
Date: 7/3/2012 4:31:24 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
699699
I am only saying that the data should be collected under normal circumstances to get rid of unwanted effects.
For the sake of science :)

hrudev cites one reason why the data could be damaged.

In a Patient, shot distribution can dramatically change.
Princeton is a slow-paced attack, even slower than Patient and Low Post going by the manuel.
Pace and its consequences are elements difficult to understand for many players.
Your data is quite interesting but we should remain cautious on an interpretation.

From: yodabig

This Post:
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220216.13 in reply to 220216.1
Date: 7/4/2012 2:07:00 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14651465
Seeing as you have this data I would love to hear the truth about just how slow the pace of it is. There is a lot of debate about what is the slowest tactic with some saying the order is motion, low post, Princeton and patient being the slowest but others disagree.

As you said I don't think your data on shot distribution is affected by the quality of teams running Princeton as much as the success percentge would be and perhaps it is presumptious to assume that all good teams run look inside and only crappy teams run Princeton.

Just saying if you have data on 30,000 shot atempts taken using base and 5-6,000 using Princeton I and many others would love to see a list of how many shot attempts each offence generated under your study.

PS: I bet if you have 30,000 base you have 130,000 look inside. It would also be interesting but of little use to see how popular each offence is.

If I had to guess I would speculate something like:
LI 40%
Push 15%
Patient 15%
Motion 10%
Run and Gun 5%
Low Post 5%
Base 5%
Princeton 2%
Inside Isolation 2%
Outside Isolation 1%

This Post:
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220216.14 in reply to 220216.13
Date: 7/4/2012 2:57:11 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
699699
I will reword it.
The game engine is not built on attacks having aims for shot distribution but primarily on individual skills in relation to the team, the opponent and the matchup.
The choice in attack will alter the basic probable shot distribution for a particular game.

This data on shot distribution is not relevant if the teams are not well set up.
It's evident in the case of Cs playing PG and PGs playing C, the shot distribution will be different than in a "normal" game.
We don't know for sure which skills at which position are expected to make a Princeton work (this alone should have the Princeton reworked).

In short, if you want your PF to take 3s, tactics or skills ?

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