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Hehehe. I heard this stuff too. Haek was trained with a lv 4 trainer.129 TSP and a pretty low salary.
It is always easy to say what someone cannot do. When I started my new training project with Sonnemans most of the others said he will not work and he will be no player for the NT. But we will see. ..

I think we should just let him rant and build his 20 DR 20 HA players with 140 TSP (presumably) and inferior builds.

On the NT side: I think Haek the other German NT guy with 17/17/17 ID/RB/SB (who is inferior to my trainee) and also Jagermeister are cost controlled players, which is a massive plus for club play. At the NT level though 9 IS on a big man is not going to be viewed favourably by many NT coaches and even among those who would like that, they'd use such a player mostly unconventionally.

True, this kind of players are a special class. And you can't use them in every game. But for some specific tasks they are exellent choices. I know for sure, that Haek influenced the tactic decissions of some NTs just because he had GS 9. They changed their plans from inside to another tactic. Sometimes it's enough to get inside the head of your opponent.

I was saying that you can have the SAME salary but have 40 more skill points. That is how the salary formula works.

It doesn't work like that and it never has. If you were able read the table I gave you, you would understand why.

Now Nachmahr has told you you can train a player with 18OD 18HA 18PA 18ID 18SB with a level 4 trainer. Do you need more proof?

I made a guy who could stop LI attacks for his NT because he had high SB and who could kill it

Tsunami was not the best player on his own team. Japan never won anything. His club coach wasn't getting to the KO stage in the B3 regularly with him as his third best player. That's the truth. Now you can keep ranting about how good he was. Provide his skillset and then, maybe, we'll talk. He's 36 and not playing for his NT, so there is no reason to keep it secret.

My PG has 10/10 ID/SB. ;)

Good for you. I fail to see how that's impressive, but I'm happy for you.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 4/9/2016 11:36:28 AM

And JS is the death of many builds as it eats a lot of cap with dubious benefits, although I can see the case for pushing JS a bit for SFs.

The reason why high DR is a horrible thing to have is that either you have other players with equally high DR or the player with very high DR will attempt more shots. And normally you would like your frontcourt players to take more shots as they are usually more efficient in BB. SFs are not as inefficient as guards, but big men are usually more efficient than them, too.

This is why you should take things with a pinch of salt and not going with blank statements about 140 builds. Those builds are typically built on 20 DR/HA to speed up all other outside skills, but unless you end up with legit 150 TSP player with good primary and key secondary skills like Conor Marshall or 160 TSP players like Hakkinen, in most cases you end up with a build which is inferior to a 125-130 build which has lower HA/DR (so fewer bad shots taken), but more OD or PA or other more important skills.

So let me make a suggestion: instead of talking totals, let's talk about hypothetical (or actual) builds. So we all know what we are discussing and we avoid personal interpretations. The (partial) builds you proposed earlier in the thread are unlikely for guards. Haek is the closest thing to what you would like, but he has underwhelming shooting skills and JR. So that's the trade-off: a guy with low shooting and uber defense and flow. I think you can add another 10 pops to his build, if you're lucky, with a better trainer, but it will still be low.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 4/9/2016 12:20:32 PM

Anyway, you've been one I've discussed a lot with and I respect, so if you show me a build, I believe it. Also its totally easy to read your posts. 129 I can believe. Heavy on DR though for sure. IF you coudl get that on a low DR big with an L4, that I would want to see numbers on. Actually I would have trouble believing anyone can get to 130 TSP with less than 10 DR.

He is a NT player currently and I won't post his skills.
About DR. I never trained it, but it's one of this skills which goes up as soon as you go for passing and handling. And Haek was trained in both to a guard level. So DR ended up at 12. -.- That's what you get if you have to train PA from 4 upwards. (Since Nestor is only pot 7 and won't play a role for the NT: he started with DR 1, HA 8 and PA 7. I trained his PA and HA until 15 and 14 and his DR was at 4. If you start with a DR 7 player, you will end up in double digits in DR for sure.)

OD, ID and SB were for me Heaks prior skills. For the first 7 seasons he received only defense training. With the first training as a 23 year old he had 15/15/15. He started with 5/5/6. That makes 29 defense ups in 5 seasons plus 13 ups in other skills like handling or rebound.

In the end I have a player now, who is neither a guard nor a big. It doesn't matter if he plays at PG or PF or C. He can defend every position and player in every tactic. But like I wrote several posts before: his biggest strength is his biggest weakness at the same time. As soon as he's on the floor, he creates an area where it's hard to score. With this he can shut down or at least cripple his direct opponent. But this leads to more actions from the other four oppoents and ergo our german players have to defend more.

Training slows down VERY FAST on the back end because everything in BB is designed that way. THere are very few formulas in BB that work on a linear scale.

Its not
1 2 3 4 5 6
It's
more like
1 4 9 16 25 36....
etc.

I mean it was created by math guys etc. They didn't make anything linear probably because it wouldn't be interesting to them.

During the training of Haek, I had the feeling that at 12 and at 15 there were "massive" slow downs in training speed. And about getting from 17 to 18 or from 18 to 19... that's hell. 8 weeks are common. This makes a right planning at the beginning for the right training order even more crucial. You can gain a lot of subs and ups or you can lose time which is impossible to regain.

Last edited by Nachtmahr at 4/9/2016 2:48:19 PM

I was reading some old forum posts on trainer effectiveness and in most of them, it was said that an L7 trainer is about 2% more effective than an L6, 4-5% better than an L5 and 8-12% better than an L4. Do you think these numbers are accurate? Just going off these numbers, and assuming that the extra effectiveness is uniform for primary and secondary training, that means for every 100 pops(which is quite a bit), an L7 gives you 2 more pops than an L6 and about 10 more pops than an L4. This seems quite low.

Last edited by Mountaineer at 4/9/2016 3:18:49 PM

I checked Haeks skills now and he is only at 126. So 3 skills lower than I though. There is also my old database of former NT players. There are two guys who were trained with a lv 7 trainer for over 14 seasons. So I compaired their average ups per season with Haeks and the difference is almost 1.5 skill ups. If I take this and put it on my player, than it would be possible for me to get around 140 TSP. That's also the range the two players were (145 tsp).
If you go with a lv 4 and train him for 12 or 14 seasons, you will reach 130 tsp. But to get to 140+ in the same time you need a lv 6 or better lv 7.

Attention: I never trained 1on1, so I think this plays a little role too. But on average a lv 7 will have 1+ ups more per season than a lv 4. and in 14 seasons that's 14 and more ups.

Last edited by Nachtmahr at 4/9/2016 4:02:02 PM