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BBs did say that GS had been linked to ST so that higher ST players had more tolerance to high minutes. I'm not going to look that up, because I'd have to do multiple google searches with the possibility that I will still not find it. You'll have to take it at face value or wait for some good soul to link the right thread.

My understanding of GS is the following:
- there is a sweet spot for each ST level. This sweet spot gives you the highest chance of a GS increase. In the past there was only one as ST was not factored in and I believe it was somewhere around the 60 minute mark
- higher ST players now have a higher sweet spot and lower ST players have a lower one
- on Friday you get a random factor thrown in and the new GS is calculated. Normally being at the sweet spot ensures the highest probability that GS won't get worse
- it's anecdotal but it appears that multiple weeks factor in the calculation. And it appears that some kind of stability may be better than ups and downs. If this is true, 70>70>70 should be better than 60>80>70, but as I said there is no proof of this.

So yes, if I have a high ST player I'd try to stay around 70 even when I get garbage time.

Another thing to factor in is the massage specialty. This is meant to make penalties for high minutes less punitive. I don't know how this works for high ST players. In other words I don't know if this brings down the minute count in the GS calculation and at which level it has a significant impact.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/9/2018 1:05:12 PM

I said that too, that's fine but... that doesn't mean that a player with higher ST will have a better GS when he play 75 then 48 minutes, that mean just that he can play a bit more mins then usual to have a good GS. Bit over 75.

As it is written, ideal is between 48 and 75, that mean that the minutes between those are equal. With higher stamina you can get a bit over those 75 and still be in that ideal circle.

The other part of your post is just your understanding of GS, and I respect that, but that is not in written in any rule, guide or etc.

About the massage specialist.

Massage: Players who play too many minutes in a given week will not experience as severe a drop in game shape.

It clearly prevents your player to drop hard in GS if he played too much.

In other words I don't know if this brings down the minute count in the GS calculation and at which level it becomes significant.

I think you are misunderstanding here. It's guaranteed there is a sweet spot, all they are telling you in the Manual is that the sweet spot is somewhere between those 2 numbers and if you stay within that range chances are your GS will not get worse. They will not give you the exact number of course, just a range within which you are going to do ok, but within that range some values are better than others. 48 is not the same as 60 or 75.

And the average point in that range is of course 61.5 so that's a good point to try and get to, especially if there is no downside (ie. you set the players to play the 12 minutes of garbage time, so barring an injury they won't overplay and even if they do 73 is probably as good as 53). However since ST is now coming into play it's reasonable to assume that for 1 ST the sweet spot will be closer to 48 and for 10 ST it will be closer to 75.

About the massage specialist.

Massage: Players who play too many minutes in a given week will not experience as severe a drop in game shape.

It clearly prevents your player to drop hard in GS if he played too much.

I know what it does, I've had one on both teams most of the time.

My question is really in respect of high stamina players. After they changed GS to be affected by ST, could the Massage specialist be detrimental to GS? Say I get 75 minutes on a 9 ST player. Maybe that's his sweet spot, but because the minutes are 'high' does the Massage doctor come into play? What about 78 or 80 minutes, that's probably still good for a 9 ST player and that's outside the suggested range.

The questions are:
- does massage come into play only if minutes are above a certain level or it affects all levels but it's not noticeable at lower levels?
- how does it work exactly: does it reduce the minutes to a lower level if they are too high before the calculation OR does it reduce the GS drop IF there is both a high minute mark and a GS drop?

If it's the latter it's fine, there is never any downside. If it's the former and it affects the GS calculation directly then it may have some downsides.

Funnily enough the first time I went to the finals in D1 I had switched to a normal doctor 2 weeks before and ended up with 9 or 10 players in Proficient GS in the last week without GS training. I still like to have the Massage specialty as insurance in case something goes wrong.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/10/2018 4:44:47 AM

I don't think I can misunderstand something in this simple sentence

Aim to play each player between 48 and 75 minutes each week and you should see game shape staying on Strong or Proficient each week.

(144856.10) - source - Guide To BuzzerBeater + FAQ

There is nothing written like a sweet spot or anything similar like that, I have never seen it? It's just a story from users.

How did you conclude that some values are better then others. How did you conclude from it that 48 is not the same as 60 or 75?
I would really love to learn that. Any link, rule, guide, FAQ, anything?

"And the average point in that range is of course 61.5 so that's a good point to try and get to"
I must just repeat it, there is nowhere written that ideal is an average point between 48 and 75, it's just minutes between 48 and 75, there is no average word there

The specialist will just help your player not to drop his GS if he played too many mins.

I made my own research based on my club, U21 and NT team that I lead like 16 seasons.
Players respond every time different to their minutes, because there is random involved there, 48 is enough, just like 50-60-70-75 minutes, with a high stamina he can play 80, but it will not benefit him more then if he played 48.

We could see that often on players under 21y or in U21, they play often just 1 full game in a week 48+ minutes (to get full training minutes) and that's all. They have "never" problems with GS, in the other hand, there are always players who play ideal minutes based on your opinion, and they stuck at GS lvl 7 or 8.. everything is possible with GS, but as the BB-s said, simple, ideal is between 48 and 75, and yes, all those minutes between are ideal.

We could see that often on players under 21y or in U21, they play often just 1 full game in a week 48+ minutes (to get full training minutes) and that's all.

Those players don't have 9 or 10 ST like NT players. Also there is the consistency of minutes over weeks which I did mention. 48>48>48 is better than 48>68>48, but as I said it's MORE of a reason to give high ST players MORE minutes: what's going to happen next week without a garbage time game? Will you manage to give him low 50 minutes again? I don't think so.

I've had double pops on players who played 36 minutes (and 0 the previous 2 weeks). Do I think it's relevant to this discussion? No.

I must just repeat it, there is nowhere written that ideal is an average point between 48 and 75, it's just minutes between 48 and 75, there is no average word there

Neither does it say that 48 or 75 is the same. So we're back to square one. You keep your view on this, but you shouldn't go around saying your interpretation of the English game manual is correct when you have no case just by looking at the wording, you have no proof or even anecdotal evidence of it being correct.

The way all other formulas work in this game it makes no sense that being at 48, 60 or 75 minutes is irrelevant to GS. And the fact that GS is impacted by ST (as stated by BBs) pretty much guarantees this because either the whole range is different for different levels of stamina (that would be the logical conclusion from your view) or different levels of stamina have a different sweet spot within the range indicated in the manual (which is my view).

Perhaps we should ask a BB or EGM to make it clear that 48, 60 and 75 are not equally likely to result in the same GS update. So that there are no misunderstandings.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/10/2018 7:35:51 AM

Nachtmahr and Joseph Ka did some research on this apparently (270505.46)

I'm still looking for the official statement about GS being affected by ST, but 3 years ago was a pretty acknowledged fact that a few people in that thread referred to.

EDIT:
(284516.3)
Here you go from Marin himself. You can see that he says that GS depends on ST somewhat and he is referring to 'ideal minute distribution'. A few posts later he even said that 48 is not really optimal either.

I hope you are satisfied now, as this definitely settles it, and we can now stop this charade.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/10/2018 8:11:02 AM

Some of them have 8 stamina, that's not high for you?
As I said I'm a NT coach like 16 seasons, you think my players there got low stamina?

You just repeat that ST affects GS, yes, but in what way? Your player can play few minutes more to still stay in this "ideal circle" of minutes.

Maybe I'm wrong, that's my opinion, but when someone say to me that ideal numbers are between 1 and 5 (include those), I will tell him that those numbers are 1,2,3,4 and 5, you don't?
The same thing is with the ideal numbers between 48 and 75.

Would love if a BB or EGM could tell us more about this.

You give me this post of Marin:

Game shape depends marginally on stamina too, so high stamina players can actually have high minutes and keep a high game shape continually. Massage specialty also helps. Actually, I can't say what is the ideal minute distribution would be (as I would be revealing too much) but 75 isn't it.

Take a look at the bold part. That's how stamina effects GS.
He also say that he don't want to tell us the ideal minutes, so we can't know, we can just guess if 56 is better then 48, is 70 better then 65 and etc...

I'm not telling that my opinion is the right, it's just opinion, and no one of us don't know how exactly GS works and what is "ideal".

Regards mate.

lol ok, bye. Everyone reading this thread hopefully has the correct understanding now with Marin's 2 posts, Nachtmahr's post and all the others included in that thread.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/10/2018 9:11:30 AM

Hey Leonidas.

The question with the GS interested me too. So in 2010 (yeah, long ago) I started to check the minutes and game shape of different teams and players. What I did (until 2012), was writing down the minutes per week and the development of the game shape.

Some of the results:
- holding a player to 48 minutes per week, almost guarantees you GS 8.
- there is still a variable, which can influence the GS to 7 or 9
- but for for more than 85% of the time, you will end up with GS 8
- between 48 and 61 minutes per week, the possibility of GS 9 rises
- a player with constant 61 minutes per week has the highest probability to have GS 9
- JosephKA came to the result (his own analysis, completely independent from mine) that 60.7 minutes per week have the highest success rate for GS 9
- there is no guarantee for GS 9, even with the 61 minutes!
- between 61 and 75 minutes, the probability decreases, but there is still a great chance for GS 9

What the analysis showed, is the same thing you are saying. Keep your player between 48 and 75 minutes and you will end up with GS 8 or 9 (almost every time). Because of the unknown variable in the GS formula, there is still a possibility for GS 7. But it's small.

If I had to guess how the GS formula looks like, I would go with something like this:

(Minutes Week 1 x weighting factor a + Minutes Week 2 x weighting factor b + ... + Minutes Week N x weighting factor for week N) x random variable = GS

The GS would be calculated as a result of several weeks (we don't know how many) and a weighted factor for every week. The older weeks would get a weaker factor, the newer weeks a stronger one. And all of this is influenced by a random variable which can improve or decrease your GS. But this is just MY OPINION and not a fact or anything like that.

With the change of Stamina and the influence on the GS, I have no clue what this means to the results.

It could mean, that a ST 9 player can play 90 minutes per week and have the same probability for GS 9 like a ST 5 with 70 minutes. Or something completely different.

Like almost everything in BB, this is all on a speculation level. We have no hard facts from the BBs and we can only guess and try to come as close as possible to the truth.

Last edited by Nachtmahr at 5/10/2018 1:36:43 PM