BuzzerBeater Forums

4) Basically you are saying one thing and the opposite as well. you are saying:
a) "Online bidding does not give too much advantage to those who can afford getting online whenever they want."
b) "I've lost a player due to that I couldn't get online when the auction started".

he also said, that the amount of avaible player at the elite is lower and even there you can spend maybe 200k more and make the bid early to get him. I even got succes with a low early bid.

Summarizing - a potential user for this game can probably connect up to 2 hours every evening and maybe here and there.
And even this is a lot.

in this period of time an average user can find 2 players, at the "average" level.

Summarizing - a potential user for this game can probably connect up to 2 hours every evening and maybe here and there.
And even this is a lot.
This gives him only 1 out of 12 of all potential players by definition.

this would be important if he need all 120 players who running out the day/week, and not just one ;) You say it is about managing, but in this dimension it would be about trading. Even with an auto bid, he would normally just get one extra player when he buy for his team, and not extra 110 cause he wouldn't bid on any of them. I just impli that more then one player run out every two hours, and/or you normally have a bit time to get one.

Due to that I guess more than one had left the game.

i think the duration of bidding war, is probadly more a reason to left the game, then the fact that you can not own every player cause you are not online to buy all. And yes there it helps, but it also destroy the fun for them who like those wars.

In one line - this game is about BB managing.

i though online implies to be online.

They will set their bids to 5K and not more than 100K (the same for both).

ugly example cause this will make bidding normal, after the autobid and does not impact the old bidding system, in this game it was like an auction start at 100k.

No, it will not.
1) It will give the auto-bidder an opportunity to be part of auctions they couldn't have otherwise (unless they will bid 100K from start).
2) No one says that all auto-biders will put their max bidding to be the same.
3) Yes, the auction is not only for auto-bidders, and will be open to online users as well.
The inline users does not lose from this situation, because upon your approach those auto-biders would have used their 100K from start in current system.

The auction starts.
At 00:00 the system calculates who should get the last bid between the auto-biders.
Let's say that it is user-A, and this means that the current bid is 95K.

like seelenjaeger explained you much more before, that should be done as soon as the second auto bid comes that makes progressing easier and is also better for other buyers or sellers. In my the big advatage of an autobidding game is that bidding would be starting earlier and not always in last second. This way it get even more frustrating for the normal bidders who maybe take their time and bid to 85k

Again, I'm not sure whether I understood you correctly, but what you have just said is purely against the theory you gave about putting the max amount from start.
What is the difference for those onlie bidders whether we are in the current system and those who couldn't get online just used there max amount (100K in this example) as their bid, or whether it was an auto-bid that went up to the max bid at 100K?
I think that by your question and my answer I've found another another point that supports the auto-bidding system.

In case a user put it's bid before 00:01:30, then the auto-bid is over, and the auction is only against the online bidders (unless another user will put a new auto-bid).

ok like that it is acceptable for the normal bidders, cause the player is already run out till the first auto bid so it is like today ;) But if you meant 23:58:30 the autobid makes no sense and people will complain when the player they wanted to buy for up to 100k ended with 45k.

Great, this is the purpose of this discussion. To find a solution that is best for all (or at least for most) users.

The other possibility which was your late proposal that the system wait 1:30, i like to talk through at a more realistic transfer.

Currently the most expensive player I bought cost me 310K, and most players cost me much less.
So for me it was kind of realistic, but it is not realy important for our discussion.

Let say the bid is at 400k and normally you get those players betwenn 500k and 800k, so maybe the online bidder can go directly for 500k but when he want it cheap maybe he makes always the minimum step. Tbut the autobidder want it on any price and put 1.000k in. Now the online bidder fights against a maschine, maybe even not knowing that it is a maschine - which don't makes fault isn't affected to bidwar strategies and wasted only time.

There is no sense for a bid-war against a machine (auto-bidding).
This is why I suggested that up to the last auto-bid value it will just be bidding from the auto-bidders and will run fast (will not wait between one auto-bid and the next).
Than, the online bidder can continue and be part of a regular bid-war in case he finds the price right...

Last edited by Pini פיני at 10/21/2011 5:44:48 PM

4) Basically you are saying one thing and the opposite as well. you are saying:
a) "Online bidding does not give too much advantage to those who can afford getting online whenever they want."
b) "I've lost a player due to that I couldn't get online when the auction started".

Those are not exact quotes by me. Anyway, there is no discrepancy. Firstly, I claim the average user is not significantly more likely to get a good deal on a great player with auto-bidding than with the current bid system. There are enough players to go around, you don't need to get exactly that one player whose auction ends at an inconvenient time. The perceived advantage of being online gets bigger the closer to the top the players (and therefore the teams interested in these players) are.

I most certainly have "lost" players due to not being online, because I was not willing to make my best possible bid right off the bat. There is a reason for the quotation marks, though. I have no way of knowing if an auto-bid would have helped me in any way. If one is hesitant in making their best bid, what makes one auto-bid with confidence. The eBay style auction basically promises a good chance of finding a buyer for the seller and the lowest possible winning bid for the buyer. This is not a goal for the BuzzerBeater transfer system.

This gives him only 1 out of 12 of all potential players by definition.
It makes the game unfair, and one that he cannot compete.

I don't agree with your conclusion. The number of players and the number of teams is sufficiently high to even things out. You can either get a player who has almost the same skill set (perhaps with a less cool name and a worse haircut) at the same price, or wait a few more days to get in all practical terms an identical deal. Like I said, it is a bit different for the elite. That is a small group however. Just for the record, I don't even consider myself part of the absolute top in this game, and my team has not exactly been rubbish in the long term with a current world rank of 15th.

Again - more time does not equal more skill as a BB manager.

I would say the oposite. A manager who is more active, reading the forum, suffling the transfer list, analyzing games and different tactics, scouting opponents, testing different players etc will be a better manager just because he puts more time in.

Summarizing - a potential user for this game can probably connect up to 2 hours every evening and maybe here and there.
And even this is a lot.
This gives him only 1 out of 12 of all potential players by definition.
It makes the game unfair, and one that he cannot compete.

As already stated gazillion times, everyone can bid. Bid max that you are willing to pay if you want the player. Just like with selling players, put in the starting price you are willing to sell the player for. If the player sells at that price, don't come crying that you wanted more. This bidding system has helped me to acquire my recend argentinian SF. I was almost ready to buy a weaker player for more money. Could not be online and did not bid my max money on him. So I got a better player with smaller salary just because I could not be online at one time and was not really willing to commit to blind bid. I'm already seeing the bug thread overflown with bugs of "why did not my autobid work" etc. Like said before, it will drive the prices up. I prefer people purchasing their players by themself. It's really not so much to ask for a few transfers a month. Guys who switch their lineup more are either rebuilding, daytraders or wannabe daytraders:) Believe me noone is quitting over current bid system.

Last edited by Kukoc at 10/21/2011 3:50:38 PM

Another suggestion that could be added to satisfy the online biders (although I think that there is no reason to do so, as the game is BB managing, as I already wrote) is to define half of the auctions to allow auto-bids and the other half not...

very cool suggestion, pretty sure the manager are happy, when maybe some bidder don't go for it cause they can not use the option. Also the managers who like to buy a specific player, and expect those options are unsatisfied.

Did not understood your sarcasm.
This option that I less prefer (again, I believe auto-bid is needed to be supported on all auctions), is a compromise that gives both types of users to enjoy part of their prefered auction system.

Again, I believe that this game is not about live auctions but about BB managing.

trading and negoations are part of managing first off all, and a normal team don't need to make so much transfers. I maybe do 2-4 serious transfer a season, at low level that number is higher but you find also fitting players "every" hour and don't need to look so much into the future.

Trading and negotiating does not mean who can be online to sign a deal whenever the other side wants to.
The player seeks for the best deal not who is willing to sign at 4AM.

I stay with it one or another, which one is pretty equal for me ... So i would pragmatically say, no need to overhaul something which is working as good.

Here you are saying something else entirely.
You claim here that you have no problem with the auto-bid system, and just that it is a waste of time and there are other issues that are much more important.
Well, in this case - there enough who finds it important so it seems something worth entering sooner than later...

Firstly, I claim the average user is not significantly more likely to get a good deal on a great player with auto-bidding than with the current bid system

By default this is wrong.
On current auction system a bidder, that cannot be online at the time of the auction, could only put its max price or hope that a lower value won't be overbided with a price he is willing to pay (meaning below its max price for that player).
On auto-bid system, he could win the auction with a lower price and will not need to take the desicion (a bet more presicely) described above.

There are enough players to go around, you don't need to get exactly that one player whose auction ends at an inconvenient time

And again, in this case there is no argument agains auto-bidding, as you claim it does not change anything.

This gives him only 1 out of 12 of all potential players by definition.
It makes the game unfair, and one that he cannot compete.

I don't agree with your conclusion. The number of players and the number of teams is sufficiently high to even things out. You can either get a player who has almost the same skill set (perhaps with a less cool name and a worse haircut) at the same price, or wait a few more days to get in all practical terms an identical deal. Like I said, it is a bit different for the elite. That is a small group however. Just for the record, I don't even consider myself part of the absolute top in this game, and my team has not exactly been rubbish in the long term with a current world rank of 15th.

By definition, the players are spreaded around the 24H day.
When a typical optional user can get online 2Hrs a day, it means he can get only 1/12 of the players.


Basically if I need to define in one short sentence each claim against auto-bidding you gave it would have been:
1) It will not affect the chances of wining an auction.
2) There is no benefit of being able to be online anytime (kind of) on current system
Each of the above claims have been proved wrong.

Someone a long this thread wrote something that probably others have thought about, and most likely a lot others took action upon.
He wrote that his all focus had been about this game and it causes him to lose focus on his GF, job etc.
Due to that he thought of leaving the game.
I guess that the BB owner would like this not to happen.

Last edited by Pini פיני at 10/21/2011 6:08:15 PM

Again - more time does not equal more skill as a BB manager.

I would say the oposite. A manager who is more active, reading the forum, suffling the transfer list, analyzing games and different tactics, scouting opponents, testing different players etc will be a better manager just because he puts more time in

Yes, but a player in the real world would not sign for a manager just because he can call him at 3AM in the morning!
He will choose the one who could pay him most (at least this is the players main concern).

Summarizing - a potential user for this game can probably connect up to 2 hours every evening and maybe here and there.
And even this is a lot.
This gives him only 1 out of 12 of all potential players by definition.
It makes the game unfair, and one that he cannot compete.

As already stated gazillion times, everyone can bid. Bid max that you are willing to pay if you want the player. Just like with selling players, put in the starting price you are willing to sell the player for. If the player sells at that price, don't come crying that you wanted more. This bidding system has helped me to acquire my recend argentinian SF. I was almost ready to buy a weaker player for more money. Could not be online and did not bid my max money on him. So I got a better player with smaller salary just because I could not be online at one time and was not really willing to commit to blind bid. I'm already seeing the bug thread overflown with bugs of "why did not my autobid work" etc. Like said before, it will drive the prices up. I prefer people purchasing their players by themself. It's really not so much to ask for a few transfers a month. Guys who switch their lineup more are either rebuilding, daytraders or wannabe daytraders:) Believe me noone is quitting over current bid system.

As already stated gazillion times, saying BID MAX is not making the game competetive, as I'm sure you are not giving your max price for a player and wait for GO/No-GO and leave the auction w/o a re-bid.

The game needs to give all users the same basic abillities to compete.
Exactly like there is no need to see the game, there is surely no need to be awake for an auction.

Also in real-BB, the manager is not the one who is being awake for the negotiation.
It is one of the employee who, like auto-bid, gets instruction what is the maximum price for it, and from what price to start from.
Again - the one who bargain is NOT the manager!
This example alone is another BIG reason why auto-bid auctions are much better system for BB-player's auctions.

Yes, but a player in the real world would not sign for a manager just because he can call him at 3AM in the morning!

You do understand that this is a game right? Some things that work in rl, might not be a good solution in a game. And if you are calling someone out of your time zone, would you call him when it's his 3AM or try to reach him at his normal awake hours. So his best time might actually be your 3AM. If you want him, you will make the call at the time it suits him.

The game needs to give all users the same basic abillities to compete.

So what you are argueing about is, that someone logging in once a month, must be on a same level with someone, logging in daily? What is the "correct" amount of logins per month/week/day? There is a 3 day window to bid on a player, to me it's simple: want to get the player cheaper, make sure you are there for the bidwar, want to get the player without being there, bid higher. Every manager can still get the player, so there are no restrictions that you can't bid. You just choose not to.

Last edited by Kukoc at 10/21/2011 7:14:22 PM

And there are even more who consiider it a wastte of time and would be unahappy with the new, and you wont make both happy. Cause auto bid would be the deeath of normal bidding.

And again, in this case there is no argument agains auto-bidding, as you claim it does not change anything.

No, introducing auto-bidding would change the philosophy of the bidding and limit user interaction on the transfer list, and it would make the transfer system more complicated.

Basically if I need to define in one short sentence each claim against auto-bidding you gave it would have been:
1) It will not affect the chances of wining an auction.
2) There is no benefit of being able to be online anytime (kind of) on current system
Each of the above claims have been proved wrong.

No. I am saying there is an advantage in being online, and I even started by saying that I find it a good approach. An actual quote: "Giving advantage to those who are willing to spend some time is IMO actually a pretty good approach." However, due to supply of players, the advantage is generally rather insignificant for the majority of users. While auto-bidding increases one's chances of winning an auction at the lowest possible price, there are so many players on the market you are very likely to find as good a deal on the transfer market even if you would need to wait a couple more days. In addition, I do not believe the transfer market should be designed such that everyone is automatically going to get the best possible deal on any given player. Where's the fun in that? This is a game after all.

If I were asked to support auto-bidding in this game, the only argument I currently see relevant is convenience. Is it more convenient to just put in an auto-bid and forget about it? Sure. However, this gain would need to balanced against such factors as having fun on the transfer market (heated bid wars), complexity of the system (what we have now is a very simple system which everyone can understand with minimum effort, while a really useful auto-bid system would be more complex), giving some advantage to active users (contrary to what you claim I am saying, I actually think there is a small advantage for active users, and I believe it should be so), and even realism.

Anyway, I am not exactly attempting to shoot you down here, Pini פיני.

Yes, but a player in the real world would not sign for a manager just because he can call him at 3AM in the morning!

You do understand that this is a game right? Some things that work in rl, might not be a good solution in a game. And if you are calling someone out of your time zone, would you call him when it's his 3AM or try to reach him at his normal awake hours. So his best time might actually be your 3AM. If you want him, you will make the call at the time it suits him.

Now this is just a bad excuse.
BB managing is not being awake and online whenever you can.
If it is so, let's change the game name and goals to be - "OM - Online Managing, the game that will test how much time you can be online conected to this game".

The game needs to give all users the same basic abillities to compete.

So what you are argueing about is, that someone logging in once a month, must be on a same level with someone, logging in daily? What is the "correct" amount of logins per month/week/day? There is a 3 day window to bid on a player, to me it's simple: want to get the player cheaper, make sure you are there for the bidwar, want to get the player without being there, bid higher. Every manager can still get the player, so there are no restrictions that you can't bid. You just choose not to.

This is another bad excuse pointing to the same issue.
A coach that doesn't come to games and training days is a bad coach.
On the other hand, he is not a bad coach if he is not practically sleeping in the court 24/7 just for the chance that some player will arive and he could extra train him...
The same is true for this game.

Basically you are arguing against it for one reason only - you can get online whenever you want, and it gives you great advantage. Advantage that has nothing to do with BB managing.
The game owner have wanted it to be played by as much who can w/o giving advantages to users that are unfair.

Summarizing - being online whenever you can does not make one being a better BB manager, and due to that it is enough to say that it shouldn't give such great advantage to those players.