BuzzerBeater Forums

There indeed seems more at hand than just bringing in the best 3-point shooters at the end of a close game.

seeing my game last night I definatly found the worst free trow shooter to foul in my opponent's team, the poor guy shot 1 for 25 from the line. But I also missed a lot of 3-point shots, and it seems that with 2 point shots I might have won easely... but then probably my opponent would start fouling my worst free trow shooter, and we'd get a very weird scenario. In the end I forced an overtime, where if my opponent would have put in his best free-trow shooters, I'd lose easely.
I say this because when you bring in the best 3-point shooters for the team that needs to catch up, you also need to bring in the 5 best free trow shooters for the team that is ahead, but then you also need to bring in the 5 best outside defenders for that team to prevent the 3-pointers.... Also you need the 5 best rebounders on both sides to grab that rebound after the fouled player missed his second free trow,... and so on and on... it's not as easy as it seems to put the right guys on the field.

Except...the team ratings do go slightly upward when you CT and slightly downward when you TiE. The reason for this seems to be that you're more likely to get lucky with, for example, your better players not getting into foul trouble, so they can stay on the court longer, or similarly being ahead, so that you tend to play your starters at the end of the game instead of playing weaker overall players with specific skills. Remember that these team ratings are only a reflection of who is on the court at what time, and that if a game is run many times, the team ratings will be different each time (although obviously pretty tightly clustered).

That's very interesting! It looks like this is an unintended effect of the new enthusiasm system, in which case congratulations on your emergent properties!

Thanks for the answer, I appreciate the effort you've put in.

Although I am supporting very much this game and how it has been designed, and I appreciate very much the efforts to improve it. I have to say that introducing this random effect in the CT/TIE is a mistake.

First because it does not make sense from the point of view of real basket: Playing more motivated will not make the ball go inside because you are more lucky.
Second, it gives a wild card to some managers that don´t deserve it. A desperate manager playing CT with nothing to loose, can eliminate a good manager who is taking the right decision: saving enthusiasm for harder matches.

But second, there are some mistakes in the implementation of this feature:

-The effect of CT should not be independent of the enthusiasm. Lower enthusiasm should lead to lower CT effect. A team with low enthusiasm can continuosly play CT succesfully, losing nothing and always getting the same effect. Of course this is not a good strategy to win the league, but it can help teams to avoid relegation, and this starts a chain reaction...

- The effect of CT and enthusiasm should be of the same nature, so a good enthusiasm should be able to equilibrate at the same level the effect of CT. A good manager should be able to develop a strategy to avoid surprises in the first play-off match.

A bad manager should not be able to benefit of a powerful tool for free. And on-line games always suffers of bad managers (maybe too clever) who take all possible advantages to the limit and of course far from the original sport. After some time we can probably see teams specialized in playing continuosly CT and winning matches just because the other team best players are fouled out too soon. The logic answer would be playing with reserves at the beginning and things like this, far away from real basket.

Last edited by Emilio at 4/16/2008 7:46:45 PM

I have to say that introducing this random effect in the CT/TIE is a mistake.

Nothing like that has happened.

Playing more motivated will not make the ball go inside because you are more lucky.

CT does not make the ball go in more often. It affects rebounding and defense, which is a very meaningful result from playing harder.

The effect of CT should not be independent of the enthusiasm

I am pretty sure it is.


All in all, I think you have gotten a whole bunch of the specifics of how CT/TIE works wrong.

Last edited by GM-kozlodoev at 4/16/2008 11:36:03 PM

BB-Charles:

Now, TiE/CT means that your team is simply getting luckier / winning the close decisions.

- This is what I meant when I said "random effect". To me, random and lucky have some kind of conceptual relationship.

BB-Charles:

In the past, TiE/CT affected the skills of the players (rebounding and defense mainly), and therefore it would also be visible in the team ratings.

- You are talking about the old CT/TIE system. Now this has changed. I agree with you, playing harder should affect to rebounding and defense, but this is not what is happening now.

BB-Forrest:

well.. after 2/3 CT your enthusiasm is low, and that's why you should have a hard time winning. The "effect" of CTing isn't any different though.

- It is strange that you did not read this, because you also posted in this thread: (23340.20)

All in all, I don´t know from where are you taking your information. I just try to help by posting my feelings about the new engine. I would be grateful if answers come also with some fresh and contrasted information.



Last edited by Emilio at 4/17/2008 5:09:05 AM

If what you say is true, could you help me understand the ratings in these two games:

(2078154)
(2412582)

They were played one on friday, in private league (the first one), after the training and form updates, and one the very next day. The first one is Normal, the second one is TIE.

Now, the form of all players is the same in the two games, the tactics are the same (both offensive and defensive), and the minutes are all very very similar (I think there is a maximum variation of 6 minutes for each player from one game to the next).

As you can see the ratings for both offenses are almost identical (only one sub-level difference), perimeter defense is identical, and ball movement is also almost identical (one sub-level difference). What changes dramatically are rebounding and interior defense. There is en entire level difference between the two games. If not for the TIE having a direct effect on those two ratings, how can that difference be explained?

I mentioned those two games because, having nearly identical conditions, they are particularly significant IMO, but there are also other examples I can think of.
(For example, I registered my highest ever Interior defense rating in a game where I was playing away from home, using a Normal defense (I usually play a 2-3), and with my best interior defender out with injury. But I CTed that game.)

Now, TiE/CT means that your team is simply getting luckier / winning the close decisions.

- This is what I meant when I said "random effect". To me, random and lucky have some kind of conceptual relationship.

Do you realize what it means, though? It doesn't 'introduce random effects in the CT/TIE. Put another way, it means that a team given a certain chance to get a rebound against a particular opponent, a team will now need a lower rebounding rate to get it. For example, if you needed, say, an average (low) rebounding to have a 70% chance, on average, to grab a rebound against a certain opponent, if you CT you might need mediocre (average), and if you TIE -- maybe respectable (low). Sounds absolutely logical to me.

You can't really discuss the random factor the way you do, since the game always has always had and will always have a random factor involved.

well.. after 2/3 CT your enthusiasm is low, and that's why you should have a hard time winning. The "effect" of CTing isn't any different though.

As far as 'the effects of CTing are concerned, whether or not enthusiuasm affects all ratings, as opposed to only rebounds and defending is a matter of discussion. My understanding is that CT is, functionally, a boost of enthusiasm for the certain game, and TIE acts vice versa. Which is why the overall ratings dropped after the midseason changes.

In view of this, the effect of CT/TIE is the same simply because it 'boosts' or 'cuts' enthusiasm by the same percentage value, which in turn means that CT at low levels of enthusiasm is not exactly useful.

Last edited by GM-kozlodoev at 4/17/2008 7:40:09 AM

I was going to post the same as you. In Spanish forums i did it. I think that the old effects of the PIC are in force, and the new changes that were recently added are increasing too much the effects of the pic (and the mots)


Changing the subject of this thread.. look at this match (2844550), i won in PIC 97-90, but.. how can he make playing "look inside" 8-11 from the 3 line? I have 2 levels more of outside defense, its amazing!

Last edited by Edju at 4/17/2008 10:56:41 AM

I would say probably just extreme bad luck, mailny due to the PIC. I don't think his perimeter players were all that good, and certainly not good enough to shoot 8-11 in normal circumstances.

And I completely agree with you on your first point.

It is hard to discuss in this forum... Leyendinha said something about changing the subject but he was not actually changing it!

Unfortunately we are forced to discuss here because it is the only way we can discuss with the collaboration of BB-Charles...


/Edited: OK, thanks, everybody can make a mistake... ;-)

Last edited by Emilio at 4/17/2008 10:58:17 AM

I think you're right - I restored the origjnal.