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What makes you think Lebron is on steroids and former players like... KArl Malone... were not?? Karl Malone's body doesn't look more "natural".

I watched Jordan, I watched Miller and I watched the Knicks back in those days and I disagree with you. Defense back then was not even close than today's. Objects in rearview mirror may appear closer than they are. Check back the videos & compare open mindedly.

The 80s is not the point of discussion, I'm just trying to show how the game evolved. But it's not in the 80s there was no D-fence nad then in the Jordan era suddenly it appeared and we saw the best defenses ever and then when Jordan retired defenses suddenly dissapeared again as you seem to be saying...

Jordan's team play appeared late in his career, his first 5 or more years he was a go to basket player. Lebron has averaged 7 assists in his career. SO what you mean for a better team play?? Jordan had more leadership, no doubt, and he gave his teammates more confidence, I agree there 100% and he had a more positive attitude out of the field. But again, Cleveland with lebron were first and without were last, that may say something about Lebron.

Lebron has a ton of haters (me included). He earned that with his tatoo "The chosen one", with the show that ended up with him in Miami, with his attitude inside and outside the court, etc... but that's not what we are supossed to discuss here and I think many of you are writing very "hate-influenced"

I have a bud whose wife is a psychologist. She says she thinks LeBron has some anxiety issues.

But I disagree on D, and I think a large part of that's officiating: it was DEFINITELY tougher in the 80s - they could get away with a heap more. Hell, listen to Kevin McHale talk about the difference between now and then (he discussed this very point on NBA Today).

Defense back then was not even close than today's. Objects in rearview mirror may appear closer than they are. Check back the videos & compare open mindedly.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlolzcidq0o) - Bulls Pistons ECF '91, two of the best def in the NBA that year

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-QbU-SBJQ8) - Bulls Heat EFC '11, two of the best def this year

Same intensity, frantic rotations on def trying to close down shooters, full court pressure. The main difference? Much better TV resolution!

Last edited by brian at 6/15/2011 9:50:14 AM

Just one point I'll throw out there:

Given how the NBA is now a global game, there's a much bigger pool of talent to draw from and players are probably, on the whole, more athletic than they once were. 30 years ago, a 7-foot German Nirk Nowitski of the 1980's would have been an amateur tennis player since he would not have had the local resources to play basketball as a teenager. Even through the 1970s basketball was still very far from being a huge sport in the US. The NBA still had a reputation for being a league of substance abusers and felons. This is among the reasons why Larry Bird and Magic Johnson are put on such a high pedestal in NBA lore, they were the big stars that were helping to attract new fans and rid the league of its "other sport" reputation. The best athletes pre-1980s were playing other sports. Not to try to detract too much from the Wilt Chamberlains and Bill Russells of yesterday, but... you think Wilt would have scored 100 points or pulled down 30 rebounds against Shaq? By the time Kareem was finishing up his career, there a whole lot more athletic 7-footers in the league to contend with. Those guys would still be All Stars, maybe even all-time greats, but it helps when you're the biggest fish in a smaller pool. To be dominant today, a player really needs to be something extra special.

And second, you really can't compare eras without understanding how the rules change, styles and trends change, etc. MJ would be great today because his competitiveness wouldn't allow him to be otherwise. Greatness will shine in any generation, but winning championships in a team sport like basketball is about more than one player. But then again, the champs still need at least one great player.

And third, wasn't I just going to make only one point?

I agree 100% with you and the GM who posted after you, you explained better than I why it's impossible to compare this 2 players.

I don´t think it is a coincidence that a lot more scoring from perimeter players came around the same time as the handchecking and 3-second rules.

In 2007 Phil Jackson said Jordan would average 45 points with these rules and Joe Dumars said it would be flat out impossible to defend Jordan the way the game is called now. Joe D should know a thing or two about that.

Though hard to compare by watching highlights, there is evidence in your video of much better defense now than then...

I could write a lot about that but if you really think defense hasn't evolved and it's the same now than back then and you show this videos as proof, then nothing I could post would change your mind.

So just a few tips:

individual defense is ABOUT speed, focus, timing and agility. Team defense adds to this scouting of the opposing team players and tendencies and team offensive playbook. There's no discussion about players being now faster and stronger and I think we can agree now there's much more information, and therefore better scouting.

in your video:

Jordan is scoring a medium range shot from the FT line without double team defense several times.

I can't recall a single play when he was denied the ball by the defense, even though many times there's no pick at all for him.

Defense is too close to basket and that's why all passes to the open guy end up in an easy shot. In most of the cases the ball is in Jordan hands close to the 3p line and all the other 4 defenders are very close to the basket, that's why Jordan is given a lot of space to play one on one and shoot from the ft line with single cover.

Offensive 5 on 5 is really slow and many times there no motion at all and offensive players don't create space neither, you don't see that in the other video were there's much more offensive movement in players without the ball.





Last edited by Supermán at 6/15/2011 5:54:38 PM

I could write a lot about that but if you really think defense hasn't evolved

that's not the debate. defense has evolved, but im saying its more due to the rules and tactics then the difference in players. Yeah, players prob are slightly bigger and faster, but that doesn't mean they are better basketball players.

there is evidence in your video of much better defense now than then...

..and there's evidence of worse defense too. I'm seeing mid and deep range jumpers closed out on tighter in 2011 then in 1991. Also see way more wide open or barely contested dunks in 2011 then 1991. How is the latter indicative of better defense. See game 2, I lost count of the # of easy inside points.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIXtOAeuCAg)

Jordan is scoring a medium range shot from the FT line without double team defense several times.

He's driving hard and killing his man with the stop on a dime, high elevation and quick release mid-range jumper that Kobe copied thru the following decade. He'd been using that move for over 10 years and he still got Byron Russell to bite on it for his final points in a Bulls jersey.

Jordan's mid-range game is more developed then Lebron's and that's where he made his living. Make teams respect your ability to posterize them, then kill them with the floaters. It's not MJ's fault that Lebron hasn't developed his mid-range game, and it's joke he has no post move or go to shot other then:

-bowl everyone over and hope for a foul
-fade away slight-left jumper from deep.

Lebron is also not doing any of this with his defender constantly hand-checking him.

Even if Lebron had developed these parts of his game, he still doesn't show the ability to impose his will on the game when he wants to AND when his team needs it, how to control a game and finish an opponent off. You need to cede more then the "mental" side of the game, he's also lacking in offensive skills or tools.

Last edited by brian at 6/15/2011 10:05:16 PM

He's driving hard and killing his man with the stop on a dime, high elevation and quick release mid-range jumper that Kobe copied thru the following decade. He'd been using that move for over 10 years and he still got Byron Russell to bite on it for his final points in a Bulls jersey.

To be fair, the push-off had a lot to do with that!

Jordan's mid-range game is more developed then Lebron's and that's where he made his living. Make teams respect your ability to posterize them, then kill them with the floaters. It's not MJ's fault that Lebron hasn't developed his mid-range game, and it's joke he has no post move or go to shot other then:

-bowl everyone over and hope for a foul
-fade away slight-left jumper from deep.

Lebron is also not doing any of this with his defender constantly hand-checking him.

Even if Lebron had developed these parts of his game, he still doesn't show the ability to impose his will on the game when he wants to AND when his team needs it, how to control a game and finish an opponent off. You need to cede more then the "mental" side of the game, he's also lacking in offensive skills or tools.

Agree on LeBron simply having not done the work.