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Relegated teams can save too much, this is the problem and not the draft pick, don't you think ?

at least not in this thread ;) here it goes about the draft logic, that weak team get the ebtter pick to catch up. Which is imho not liogical when you relegate and normally are a favorite int he league below.

What you don't seem to comprehend is. The team relegating is the weakest team in that league. It's irrelevant what his chances are next season in the lower league.
Basically he has fought his way to divI while drafting late while he was in divII (just like stronger teams should). It's bizarre how you can't understand why the last team get's to pick first.
I would like people who have actually experienced relegation, to talk about what a team gains and loses with relegation. I'm sorry but you are not one of them and you are lobbieing for moldable draftees for strong teams.

A reasonable opinion is not necessarily invalid just because the one expressing it is acting from a theoretical point of view.

first of all even wehen i didn't relegated, i can observe the effects.

And to be relegatred means not, that you already are in the top 4 teams of the lower league normally. And now say me why he deserved more to püromote back, and why new team in upper division are bad?

Which is more normally that you need an extra push, when you promote to a team so he would deserve the top pick much more.

the purpose of the draft is keep the competion close, so it makes much sense to give it the worst team in a closest league. But no sense to give it to the powerhouses in lower leagues, especially when they deserve there right in beeing week the last season(maybe they would need the pick then one season before) And that our different view, i don't see leagues as a close shop of 16 team who maybe sometimes relegate to promote back(and therefor need a greeat pick, that the other team have lower chanches to get his promotion spot)

Last edited by CrazyEye at 7/8/2012 5:52:34 PM

first of all even wehen i didn't relegated, i can observe the effects.

Obviously you haven't observered enough.

And to be relegatred means not, that you already are in the top 4 teams of the lower league normally. And now say me why he deserved more to püromote back, and why new team in upper division are bad?

What the hell does the first sentence even mean? You promoted in S3, so it's natural you do not understand what promotion/relegation is all about. To promote you have to be the strongest team in that divII (division levels are examples), so you have earned (not through draft) to get a chance at the next level. There will be 4 new teams in every top division, each season. The weaker ones relegate with the economy hammer and higher picks. So you think that the divI winner deserves the pick more than the divI 16-th?

Which is more normally that you need an extra push, when you promote to a team so he would deserve the top pick much more.

You can speak english right? Right?...

the purpose of the draft is keep the competion close, so it makes much sense to give it the worst team in a closest league.

Who is the worst team in divI?, who is a powerhouse in a lower league? Is it the team that promotes? I think it is and he usually get's to pick last after his promotion season, like the strongest team should. If he then is the weakest team on the next level and relegates, he should pick first among those teams. How is that hard to understand?

So please make some sense now, who would you give the first pick to? It's really not understandable in your post. You want to assign it to the strongest team, that promotes to divI? and the divI pick goes to? The divI winner? Use the academy where the smarter and richer teams can get a great pick nomatter where they stand in the standings? What is your solution?

Last edited by Kukoc at 7/8/2012 7:42:56 PM

so you have earned (not through draft) to get a chance at the next level.

at least you see that, with promotion/relegation you play at a different level, not any more at the same. As a relegated team you are a strong team the league below, as a promoted tteam ayou are a weak team the league above. Now you are in a different competion, and is have no meaning that you are a weak team the league above, and need to catch up to theis opponent through a better draft pick(this is something promoted team would need)

Who is the worst team in divI?, who is a powerhouse in a lower league? Is it the team that promotes?

I think it is and he usually get's to pick last after his promotion season, like the strongest team shoul

you really think that most promoted team promotes again int he next level since they are naturally the strongest team in the league above. The relegated teams, in lower league are so weak that they relegated aggain, which you can say with your experience where you even didn't loose a game(i think not even win a game would show it much better, but that would be also a unrealistic example)

Draft is something to make the competzion close, if you relegate, you get in another competion. And then you ain't a weak team anymore. Most of then fight for the promotion back, like your team.

if you promote you get in a new competion, where you ain't the strongest team anymore, and normally fight relegation.

So you think that the divI winner deserves the pick more than the divI 16-th?

ok the promoted team play such a crap, that he really wins game, instead of loosing then punish him.

Use the academy where the smarter and richer teams can get a great pick nomatter where they stand in the standings? What is your solution?

make it not valuable, to make the biggest investment or get the payback enough that everyone do. In HT system as a example for a youth academy program, you basically have the same money and don't need to deserve the right to get a good talent in playing bad.


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Which is more normally that you need an extra push, when you promote to a team so he would deserve the top pick much more.

You can speak english right? Right?...

i hope so, push is that you need stronger for your new task from outside help. I expained it for the aese i caouldn't speak english.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 7/9/2012 1:57:40 AM

I think it needs to be noted that there are two trypes of relegators. There are those that "did the right thing" and fought to exhaustion to stay up and at the end of the season have no money or even a debt when they enter the lower division. Often these teams then struggle in the next division as their revenues are so bad, their players are too expensive and they need to get rid of some of their favourite players who sometimes have been with the team for many seasons. This is a source of great pain and sometimes they will drop a second division before they can stop the rot.

Then there are the "tankers" who realised they had little chance to stay up and spent their season preparing for the one to follow. They will drop down with massive savings and the players needed to bounce right back up.

There is a world of differnce between these two. The first really needs a great draft pick to save their team and maybe even keep the player in the game. For the second the draft pick is just mustard.

There are those that "did the right thing" and fought to exhaustion to stay up and at the end of the season have no money or even a debt when they enter the lower division.Often these teams then struggle in the next division as their revenues are so bad,

but they also have bigger human capital then, i also don't see this teams fight again for relegation. And usually they have a bit higher income then teams who fight succesful against relegation and still need to pay more then they can afford to stay in the league.

I rarely see, that manager who relegates end up in a fight against relegation again, without beeing pretty inactive even before and not trying to stay.

Also the new promoted team need to burn money to stay in the division then too, so the need for them is also higher then in the other cases for the push. While the relegated team have chanches that the lower division isn't maxed out yet, to get money again.

So casual relegated team have a worse position then tankers, but still a good one for there new challenge. So i don't really agree with that:

There is a world of differnce between these two. The first really needs a great draft pick to save their team and maybe even keep the player in the game.

Also those draft pick is usually only for the worst and second worse team, normally the relegated team who play relegation fighted harder for staying in the higher league and don't get those players.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 7/9/2012 3:50:45 AM

and need to catch up to theis opponent through a better draft pick(this is something promoted team would need)

That's where we have completely different views. You want a team that promotes (was the strongest team in his league) to receive the first draft pick in addition to his promotion bonus. How is that helping against tanking. If I get a great draftee and know I have slight chances to win, I will just rack up money and train that draft pick the whole season. If I relegate and receive that draftee, I can't just throw the season to train him, as I need to compete to get back up. See the difference?

you really think that most promoted team promotes again int he next level since they are naturally the strongest team in the league above. The relegated teams, in lower league are so weak that they relegated aggain, which you can say with your experience where you even didn't loose a game(i think not even win a game would show it much better, but that would be also a unrealistic example)

You have completely misunderstood my point.

ok the promoted team play such a crap, that he really wins game, instead of loosing then punish him.

What?...

In HT system as a example for a youth academy program, you basically have the same money and don't need to deserve the right to get a good talent in playing bad.

A weakest team should always pick higher than the strongest team. Academys remove the advantage, unless the academy pool get's inserted in the draft. This would be ok as everyone can get your molded player.

i hope so, push is that you need stronger for your new task from outside help

khm... total blur again.

A weakest team should always pick higher than the strongest team. Academys remove the advantage, unless the academy pool get's inserted in the draft. This would be ok as everyone can get your molded player.

normally order of the strength in the league, which the draft is about balancing out:

top group: 2-3 top team, and the relegated team(two-three get crappy picks, one get a genious one)

upper lower group: get a fair picker, sometimes something useful but in a fair relation to there strength

lower average group: also get fair chanches related to the other groups

weakest group: 2-3 team who stayed in league + newly protoed team. Some get quite early pick, other get the worst.

Is that really somekind of balancing?

That's where we have completely different views. You want a team that promotes (was the strongest team in his league) to receive the first draft pick in addition to his promotion bonus. How is that helping against tanking. If I get a great draftee and know I have slight chances to win, I will just rack up money and train that draft pick the whole season. If I relegate and receive that draftee, I can't just throw the season to train him, as I need to compete to get back up. See the difference?

i trained 18 yo even in a harder enviroment without throwing a season, i often selled quite useful draft pick which helps my team also. But with the new merch rules, tanking is the oppurtunity to catch up in the merchandise area ;) And managing towards succes.

Your case about the draft has some merit but how is it relevant to this thread about tanking ?
So I will ask again, more to the point, what's the main incentive for tanking, the draft pick or cash ?
Why are we talking about the draft when everything is about the money ?

You are mistaken on a lot of your assumptions. In short, you talk crap.

Nowadays, most teams don't promote back like you seem to say.

Let's travel to Germany D.III.
We will look at the two 8th of each league's conference in season 18 and see if they promoted on season 19.
Easy to look at.

I will present the result like this : a/b/c
a is the nr of teams which promoted back
b is the nr of teams which didn't
c is the nr of teams which became bots

III.1 : 1/1/0
2 : 0/2/0
3 : 0/2/0
4 : 0/2/0
5 : 0/2/0
6 : 0/2/0
7 : 0/1/1
8 : 1/0/1
9 : 2/0/0
10 : 1/1/0
11 : 0/1/1
12 : 0/1/1
13 : 1/1/0
14 : 0/2/0
15 : 0/1/1
16 : 1/0/1

So out of 32 teams, 7 promoted back, 19 failed to promote back, 6 are now bots.

Same with Bundesliga, 1 team in D.II, 1 team in D.III.

Same with German D.II : 3 teams promoted back, 4 teams failed to promote back, 1 team relegated to D.IV.

At first glance, it is harder to promote back in lower leagues. The competition is more even as teams can't stockpile cash easily.

Tanking is primarily beneficial to top league teams.
Top leagues teams are not interested in the draft, they have cash to buy themselves trainees and they need already developed players not crappy 18 yo.
Look at U21, almost all in lower leagues.
Lower league teams rely on draftees.
Top league teams buy those draftees when the salary becomes unmanageable for the lower league teams.

Top league teams can make a fortune (from a lower league perspective) in a few weeks of tanking. Do you want to make us believe they are incredibly interested in the draft that costs money to scout and needs luck ?
Bundesliga's last draft : 1st choice was a 4k MVP PF who was kept, 2nd choice was a 5.5k PAS C sold for 237k, 3rd choice was a 3.7k PAS C sold for 1k, 4th choice was a 4.5k AS SF sold for 250k, 5th choice was a 4.4k SS PG who was kept.
Why are you creating a problem out of this ?

Let's talked about real issues.