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I see. And I totally agree with you that Eugene is an unique one. (he has 15 JS based on his inside skills you described and looks like a Keven Love-type player) That's might also explain why he gets fouls more easily than the average.

In the current game setting, players like Kevin Love are not able to compete with players like Tim Duncan or KG and will get foul trouble easily. 11 IS is not good enough to beat 13ID in Patient setting (in LI, yes, it works at C as you get ~22% bonus for IS, 11*1.22= 13.42). Thus, Eugene mostly relies on his 15 JS, and high 2nd chance attack rate coming from his high RB to score (2nd chance attack offers additional 25% bonus for inside score).
Oppositely, as LI offers 22% and 15% IS bonus at C and PF respectively, Eugene's 13 ID is harder to defend his opponents.

Definitely, at the D-end, Eugene will be much better as he has high block skill.
Honestly, using Patient as your offensive tactics, he will have problem to deal with not only players similar to your Dorde Pusic at PF, but also Elar Hell-type players at SF. And both of them are way cheaper than Eugene.
It is my opinion that to build a Motion-/R&G- based team around Eugene as a PF would benefit you most.

Last edited by Dino Boy at 5/9/2013 5:51:06 PM

Both of my bigs have at least 11 JS. There are certain teams that don't have well rounded guys who're pretty vulnerable to them.

Just want to correct you one thing.
If you read my previous post carefully.
It is NOT necessary to have a ID15+ center to stop a 15 JS bigs. 9 ID at PF or 7 ID at C is enough because of the penalty.

Since you are still training him, I would suggest you add 2-3 IS then he will be truly lethal.

Just want to correct you one thing.
If you read my previous post carefully.
It is NOT necessary to have a ID15+ center to stop a 15 JS bigs. 9 ID at PF or 7 ID at C is enough because of the penalty.

Since you are still training him, I would suggest you add 2-3 IS then he will be truly lethal.

You mean OD, not ID, but just pointing that out would be a pointless post. ;)

I think you're confusing the "penalty" to team ratings (like Offensive Flow, etc.) as calculated by tools like Coachparrot with an actual individual player penalty reducing the players' skills because of the offense/position they play in. The fact is that the team ratings in Buzzerbeater are an overview but not the end-all and be-all (unlike Hattrick, if you play that, where the ratings themselves are used in the engine calculations).l

The easiest example I can think of is having big men with good passing/handling/driving skills, and then replacing them with guys with all 1s in those skills. The offensive flow doesn't change, but you sure can see the results in game - far more turnovers and far fewer assists between big men.

My experience is completely the opposite of what you're claiming in terms of JS at big. My trainees have nowhere near 15 JS yet - one's a 10/8, one's a 9/8 and one's a 7/5. The 10/8 guy for a while was among the league leaders in 3pt%. While it doesn't take equal OD to hold shooting percentages down at any position, a 7OD guy is going to be torched by a 15JS guy.

You got the point. I totally agree that those game ratings can not faithfully reflect how god/bad a team/player is.
I did not say that JS at bigs are not important. Actually, my best big also has 40% 3FG because I know JS is important. (although the sample size is not big enough but you can try to image his JS is not low).

Do you have any idea those players' OD who guarded your bigs? And what kind of offense tactics you used? These all affect any outside attack significantly.

Me with two friends tested several tactics in scrimmages last year. We used a 14JS/8HD/8DR center against a OD 7 center. With Motion and R&G the center can make shoot very well (but R&G let the center shot very few). PTB and Princeton the second, Patient and Normal was so so (~30-40%), LI & LP did not work at all (~25%).

Of course this might not fit any other cases, as the compositions of any single matches are different. (Enth, shape, exp, stamina, whatever.....)
However, "a 7OD guy is going to be torched by a 15JS guy", I assume it fits at PG/SG/SF/PF matches because the difference is too huge. But at C, it depends as the "penalty" does exists.

Last edited by Dino Boy at 5/10/2013 3:04:38 PM

Do you have any idea those players' OD who guarded your bigs? And what kind of offense tactics you used? These all affect any outside attack significantly.

Not all of them, but there were definitely some that had decent OD. Of course, my trainees are odd anyhow - one of them is a PG again today since I worked in a passing week. And pretty much all of my games with a few exceptions are with Princeton offense, which is also an odd duck. They definitely do seem to perform better at PF, too - although Cheek's best game at C was against the team in the league that's as fanatical as I am about secondary skills: (55958234)

And obviously I agree that it depends on tactics - a 15 JS guy against any level of OD at C will have a bad day in a look inside if he can't shoot inside. One thing that I tried in a private league game recently was not playing either of my "real" bigs so my trainee with 10IS would be considered the best inside guy and played an inside isolation. (58761990) I was expecting a lot more assists from Busch at C than I got, but I was surprised at his shooting percentage and the fact that he got off 3 threes.

First of all thanks to Natellio fo moving me up to rank 7 but don't think I'm there yet, just trying to stay at lvl III for now.

where do you find out about penalty or bonus for certain positions. how is that figured. Thanks enjoying the conversation just need to get up to speed with details

That's very interesting and thank you for the discussion. High JS bigs fit Princeton very well with good passing flow among the whole team. I have no doubt with it.
Back to my original post, I thought Patient is not the best tactics for a 15 JS/11 IS big as there are a few better options (although the stat's look very amazing and people love to have a score champion in their team). As Eugene has high HD/DR, to make Patient works efficiently, it is better to increase his JS to 18-20. The question is, he is not young, is it really worth to do that?
Honestly, I think BB has a lot of good design to let managers think more.

Now my friend is trying to test if a high JS SG can help bigs to create their shots easier (in LP setting). In the real world, the answer definitely is a yes. It will be a difficult experiment but it is worth to know.

Last edited by Dino Boy at 5/10/2013 4:50:31 PM

As hrudey mentioned, Coachparrot is a good start, but it does not contain everything you might want to know. And it is not easy to understand as the explanation is not very clear.

You also can check the off-site forum. There is a tons of information and useful tools.