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National Team Debate Thread (thread closed)

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From: tough

This Post:
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224157.73 in reply to 224157.71
Date: 8/24/2012 4:09:17 AM
Mountain Eagles
III.1
Overall Posts Rated:
788788
Second Team:
Ric Flair Drippers
man what going on?

I'm willing to change to guards once I finish training Delong and Fritz and Coleman.....................I can help by buying a SS high skilled guard.......just that I probably need 800k -_- anyways whats all the heated discussion in the morning?

3 Time NBBA Champion. Certified Trainer. Mentor. Have any questions? Feel free to shoot me a BB-Mail!
This Post:
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224157.74 in reply to 224157.72
Date: 8/24/2012 4:19:34 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
556556
I agree that the NT job isn't just tactics, and is about having the community buy into your ideas. What I am saying is that this issue, which we are now discussing productively, is not simple. You may be able to put together a large group of volunteers, but often that group of volunteers does not have the right players, or the resources to attain the right players, or the right players are not for sale.

I think its a reasonable guess to say that 80% or more of our top rookies go to Division V teams. Our domestic scouting team reaches out to hundreds of managers of our top rookies. The reality is that the majority of them do not respond. The ones that do sometimes have their own training plans because in the end its their team. The few that are willing to take suggestions, again some of them may not have the starting build that we are looking for.

This whole thing is going to take a lot of work from the entire staff and community as well as our NT manager.

Last edited by jfarb at 8/24/2012 4:24:28 AM

From: J-Slo

This Post:
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224157.75 in reply to 224157.43
Date: 8/24/2012 8:10:16 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
8888
There's two problems jfriske (and I say this as a fairly ardent supporter of the 2-3):

(2) Even if we assume that a 2-3 can work, we don't have the personnel for it. We did a lot of testing of variations of it in scrimmages this season, and in all the metrics we checked (not just final score), it was miserable. Maybe that means it can't work, or maybe it means we don't have the players for it. But in either case, it doesn't seem to work for us. And with so few people on BB believing it could work, there's very little movement towards training the "right" sort of players.


I guess this is my whole point though. We think we know how it works, we look at our roster and suspect we don't have the right sort of personnel based on our interpretation of how 2-3 works, and when we run some tests scrimmages we get poor results. Why is that at all discouraging? It would be more confusing if it DID work for us somehow.

I'm not trying to say we should be running a 2-3 in meaningful games right now, I'm saying we should be making a concerted effort from the top down to encourage training of skill sets we think would play well in a 2-3, so that we do have that weapon in our arsenal several seasons from now.

As far as the balance between open vs. contested shots, that's a great point and always a huge consideration, and I understand that in general giving up flow to your opponent usually results in giving up more uncontested shots. Intuitively though shouldn't a 2-3 zone that packs everybody inside the arc contest more of everything except 3pter's? With somebody always around the ball, and the OD and SB nuances suggested by your data, wouldn't we actually expect more contested shots (including jumpers)?

That may not have been born out in the data (I didn't see anything in any of the blog posts re: contested vs. assisted based on defense) or our scrimmages, but it's easy to argue that is because those examples involve guys without the skills to succeed at what we're asking of them. I guess my point is that less pressure on the PG/entry pass may not necessarily mean more assisted/uncontested shots, even if that has historically been the case.

If we think we know something important about how to use a tactic that seems custom made to neutralize the game's most popular current tactic (LI), I think we should embrace that and commit our NT to the long term development of players who can help us take advantage of our information. It's not information that should change our in-game tactics this season, it's information that provides an opportunity to redirect our NT training for multiple future seasons.

I think the risk side of the risk/reward equation is why people are gun-shy about committing to training something that hasn't been proven yet (since it could embarrassingly fail), but really what is the risk: that we don't win worlds? I think we're already starting to understand that we even with good coaching, GS, community involvement, and training we still aren't a big enough community to use traditional approaches to just steamroll through some of our larger, better organized foreign competition, so I'm not sure we would really be risking all that much by taking some calculated risks based on good data and analysis.

We have some valuable insights from the mountains of data you guys have been able to acquire. My position is that the best way for the NT to make use of it is a BB version of the Manhattan-project :) Otherwise we will just be using the data to explain why some other country's 2-3 works so well a half dozen seasons from now.

Last edited by J-Slo at 8/24/2012 8:34:11 AM

This Post:
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224157.76 in reply to 224157.75
Date: 8/24/2012 9:16:53 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
178178
I'd like the last 5 minutes of life back after having to read all of this 3 am drivel from last night.

Can we please focus on the election?

This Post:
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224157.77 in reply to 224157.76
Date: 8/24/2012 9:49:10 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
504504
Yeah......good luck with that. Hahaha

From: wozzvt

This Post:
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224157.78 in reply to 224157.75
Date: 8/24/2012 9:56:23 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
228228
We think we know how it works, we look at our roster and suspect we don't have the right sort of personnel based on our interpretation of how 2-3 works, and when we run some tests scrimmages we get poor results. Why is that at all discouraging? It would be more confusing if it DID work for us somehow.

You're not wrong, but here's the dilemma... we *think* we know what types of players would make it work, but we don't know for sure. So we'd be encouraging someone (more like, someoneS) to spend 6-7 seasons training a very particular, very expensive type of player, at which point we might realize "oops, we were wrong, it still doesn't work very well". That's a huge thing to ask of the community, with very, very high risk. If people were interested in trying this on their own, with the understanding that it might fail miserably, then that'd be great, but personally, I'd be uncomfortable asking it of anyone. (It's similar to the Logsdon issue... sure, it might be great to have a player like that, but the costs in terms of training time and salary as so extreme that it's not really fair to encourage someone to make a player like that, since we know they're only going to be a marginal NT guy anyway).

As far as the balance between open vs. contested shots, that's a great point and always a huge consideration, and I understand that in general giving up flow to your opponent usually results in giving up more uncontested shots. Intuitively though shouldn't a 2-3 zone that packs everybody inside the arc contest more of everything except 3pter's? With somebody always around the ball, and the OD and SB nuances suggested by your data, wouldn't we actually expect more contested shots (including jumpers)?

You would think, but that's not how it's implemented. As I've heard it explained, OD defends passes, ID defends "post-ups". So in determining whether a pass leads to an open shot (i.e., an assist), it's a PA vs OD evaluation. 2-3 reduces team OD, and ergo causes these passes to more often lead to open shots.

I think the risk side of the risk/reward equation is why people are gun-shy about committing to training something that hasn't been proven yet (since it could embarrassingly fail), but really what is the risk: that we don't win worlds? I think we're already starting to understand that we even with good coaching, GS, community involvement, and training we still aren't a big enough community to use traditional approaches to just steamroll through some of our larger, better organized foreign competition, so I'm not sure we would really be risking all that much by taking some calculated risks based on good data and analysis.

The risk is really to the club team. You give up a lot in terms of training opportunity, and then pay a lot in terms of salary. It's a big personal sacrifice that may or may not produce something positive for the NT.

Also, I should say, I don't think community size is necessarily the reason we've had trouble at worlds. In fact, if you look at the largest user bases in BB, of the top 5 (italy, spain, poland, us, france), only poland has managed to be successful at the NT level. I think part of the problem is similar to the "micronation" issue that has come up-- having a really competitive club league is in many ways counter-productive to having a good NT. (I.e., since all our "rich" teams have such a thin margin for error, it's very hard to make the sorts of sacrifices that would benefit the NT: owning multiple high salaried NT players, training them out of position, etc). Poland has been the exception here, for which they deserve a lot of praise, but they're the exception more than the rule. The other teams that have done the best lately are the countries that have enough teams to generate a big enough based of high quality trainees, but not so big that the top divisions are uber competitive (China, Czeck Republic, Turkey, Slovenia, Chile, etc).

This Post:
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224157.79 in reply to 224157.78
Date: 8/24/2012 10:04:17 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
You would think, but that's not how it's implemented. As I've heard it explained, OD defends passes, ID defends "post-ups". So in determining whether a pass leads to an open shot (i.e., an assist), it's a PA vs OD evaluation. 2-3 reduces team OD, and ergo causes these passes to more often lead to open shots.


I'm going to pretend I know the answer and am asking this just for everyone's benefit because the wolves and mafia are already licking their chops over getting me, but when you say that OD defends passes, is that only one-way (i.e., the OD of the guy defending the passer or the OD of the guy defending the pass receiver), two-way (OD check vs. passer and receiver) or is it just passing vs. team OD?

Not that I expect there to be much practical purpose in the question, as the odds of finding anyone building 18+OD/ID/SB type big men are about as low as can be differentiated from zero, but it would certainly be an interesting direction to go with the 2-3.

This Post:
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224157.80 in reply to 224157.79
Date: 8/24/2012 10:14:58 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
228228
I don't know. I doubt that's it's evaluating team OD, but the tactic certainly modifies each player's "effective" OD (so a player with 10 OD will play like someone with ~11.5-12 OD if you use a 3-2, and like 8-8.5 OD in a 2-3). But what the exact check is, I'm not sure. I've assumed the passer's PA and the OD of the guy defending the pass's recipient are involved, and it wouldn't surprise me if the OD of the guy defending the passER is also involved, but I'd be guessing.

Last edited by wozzvt at 8/24/2012 10:16:41 AM

This Post:
00
224157.83 in reply to 224157.76
Date: 8/24/2012 2:01:53 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
142142
I'd like the last 5 minutes of life back after having to read all of this 3 am drivel from last night.

Can we please focus on the election?

Haha, my thoughts exactly. Here's jfarb reading one of southpaws post. http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkunfaTc7z1qi553yo1_500...

Last edited by Jack Stevens at 8/24/2012 2:03:54 PM

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