BuzzerBeater Forums

Dude, I thought you were the one whining about people condescending to you?


I'll throw my 2 cents in here, just cause I can't help myself.

I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to Wolph's argument. In the end, I kinda feel that if you define success solely by wins and losses and league advancement, probably it is a bit faster to do day trading and buy all veterans, while not training people. One reason is that obviously you can turn your players over more quickly, so that let's you more quickly change players as learn from your mistakes. It takes some time to get a better feeling for what skills are important and how to truly evaluate players.

The issue with training is that there's a longer delay from initially starting out and then really figuring out who is a decent player to start with, and what skills train quickly versus slowly, and how many pops to expect per season, etc. That can lead you to spend a decent chunk of time training non-ideal guys, before you learn that they weren't the best people to train. That training will still have some worth, and you are adding value, but you can be missing out on "player overall worth" compared to starting with better initial trainees (opportunity cost and all that).

However, I think it's pretty obvious that the training at lower levels IS possible, and valuable, contrary to Wolph's absolutist assertions. And given all the arguments and comparison of team's using the different approaches, I don't see any compelling argument for one leading to a faster advancement than another. It's not like daytrading and all veteran-no training approach is required to advance, so then it's really up to the user to decide what's more fun.

This must be a cultural thing because I have no issue with you but find it funny that you are so aggressive and leap to the assumption that this is part of some Machevelian plan to spread lies and mistruths to raise the price for some player that I intend to sell in the future. This assumption is a little odd, but I still like you and your many crusades.

Back to the actual discussion.

I am sure you will agree that after the draft you can easily pick up 19 year old all stars with ok primaries and salaries of $4-5,000 for 25k or less. Surely I don't have to show you.

Agree?

Next I am sure we agree that even with a level 4 trainer that 19 year old if trained single position (I never said double, that would be silly) for 4-5 seasons could get to the triple sensational I described. Easily! I even allowed to age 25! Even though I am ""a fool"". Why do I have to show you an example? As you said I am "completly clueless" but I can (barely) do the maths. Average in the 3 skills to sensational is a total of 18 pops over 4-5 seasons. How can you possibly dispute this?

Agree?

So we have established you can make the $25,000 or less cost rookie into the triple sensational guy easily and now I don't have to show you, show you, show you? Do I?

Back to the TL.

Can't see the guy you listed, any age, any potential, PRODIGIOUS OD for sale on the 24th for $100,000, but there is one on the 26th, but there is three days left, he will go for way more than a million and he has bad passing so misses under all measures. I jacked the sale price up to $1,000,000 to try and find the guy you were talking about but all I can see is guys with way less than sensational JS and PA (and the only player that is close is 31 not 25 or less).

I know you are joking when you say

I'm not sure what age matters when we are talking about CAPPED players.

you just forgot to add the smiley at the end. You are not trying to tell me that a capped 21 year old is worth the same as a capped 35 year old with identical skills. I know you are kidding. Here is what you forgot to add ->

:P

Finally, I will look for your 13+ OD under 150k...plenty.

Actually there is nine. How many also have sensational passing? None. None of the auctions even finish in the next 23 hours, funny that. They are just guys who have been listed low, not sold low. Several of those guys (who are not as good as the examples I gave) have TPEs and guess what, all but one are around a million and the one who doesn't is exactly the sort of guy you hate a JS monster, as well as being really old. He is the only one who will come close so I have bookmarked him and we shall see tomorrow his actual sale price.

Good advice, Gunner. I would make one suggestion. If you're going to get some decent trainees, regardless of div (lower level included), why purchase them with a potential anything lower than p.allstar. I'm sure you're aware that a trainee needs to have this as minimum, and I'm also sure you said 'star' as he is in a low division with limited cash. However, if we're serious in helping him learn this game then we need to give him the facts: he needs to do everything suggested by others (in terms of firing the trainer and getting quality cheap older players) however, he also needs to invest in "good quality" trainees. As we know, this requires a minimum of p.allstar potential if he is going to train them up successfully. Yes, I can also appreciate that he will likely make mistakes in his training being a newby and this is why you may have also suggested the "star" potential, but again (and I'm not being smart here at all), let's give him the best info we can and let him do with it what he may. :-)

I am a big fan of superstar potential myself. However for new players they can't afford them. We will have to agree to disagree about the costs of getting those allstars but don't forget I am talking about 19 year olds after the draft. They are literally given away. The player I wanted to draft myself was a 6'0" $4,000 superstar potential 19 year old who was picked one place ahead of me and sold for $3,000. Everyone wants 18, but as a new player at that time you can get some incredible bargains on 19 year olds.

Right now I am training two superstar potential guys (and an all-star) with a level 6 trainer, but new teams just can't afford the players or the trainer. I think we agree about what is the best thing to do.

I don't remember referencing the salaries of his players.
I think that is you trying to condenscend me assuming that I thought his team was doing better than yours because his players had better salaries or something. I never said anything about salaries. I don't know why you pack of division IV and V guys think you know everything about buzzerbeater and insist to talk to me like i am a moron, call me names, and just generally go on and on about how correct you are and how your strategies are the best and most dominate in the game.

Let me explain what happened here and then you decide what you want to make of it:
1. Arthur Monay posts about how my salaries are roughly 70k/wk less, which is close to $1M in savings.
2. I point out (to Arthur) that it's easier to just look at the weekly amount and figure that's how much profit per week more he'd need in trading to break even, and point out that just looking at salaries doesn't tell the whole story (staff, arena, etc)
3. You say (to me, response to that post) he hasn't done well trading recently.
4. I say (in response to your post) that it's possible to make money trading, regardless of whether or not he's doing it at the current time, and say that the whole intent of my post, directed to Arthur, was that comparing the salaries doesn't tell the whole story.

Now, with that explanation, if you're offended that I mentioned salaries in the context of the original post in that string that was explicitly about salaries, and thought I meant you brought it up, I apologize. I was responding in the context of that facet of the discussion, and while I thought it was fairly clear what I was talking about at that point, it may not have been.

And with that aside, I know for a fact I've never called you names, called you a moron, or claimed anything about how my strategy is either dominant or absolutely correct. This whole thing started because *YOU* said, among other things:
"Thinking that training is possilbe at your level in the game. This is not really your fault. One would hope this game is set to reward you for training your own players...that really only happens in small nations where they have the finances or established teams taht bought pre created players at around 22. Its just the way they set this game up."
"You are in Division IV dude....either you just started last year or training has not got you anywhere near where daytrading would. Personal results?? Are you kidding? Would you like to see my track record for training?"

So I attempted to point out that training *IS* possible, and it is quite feasible to succeed in V and IV in the USA with a strong focus on training. And while I appreciate that you have a friend here, who appears to have found himself relatively successful as well, this doesn't make you the ultimate expert on this level. I certainly don't presume to lecture people on how to build their teams at higher levels or even say that my way is the only way here; but having lived the V to IV experience personally gives me just a little bit of credibility, okay.

None of you has earned a million in your first season have you? I spend more on my arena my first season than you did on your entire team.

None of us started in II, either. (Well, I did with my original team in season 2, but I logged in once or twice, and did absolutely nothing with it).

How about how far he got in the cup last season? Now there is a team strength indicator. YOu can also look at game ratings.

Except the cup is random draw and different people put different emphasis on it. (I focus on league primarily, personally, and thus am stunningly unsuccessful and not at all concerned). But don't come at me with game ratings. If you want to be offended that (you thought that) I argued about the importance of salaries, especially, putting focus in the game ratings is absurd for the same reason - they provide an incomplete picture

I hope I am not offending anyone but I know a funny story about USA division V. A guy was in division V in USA the season before the salary floor came in. He had three 18 year old trainees but besides them just bought players for $1,000 each week, won most of his games, fired them before sunday night and paid close to nothing each week in salaries. He won his division doing that and was promoted. I don't know how much he made but it was a fortune!

These guys are not talking about U21 potentials or high potentials. They are talking about scrubs. they are talkign about turning low potentials into 1million dollar players.

No, at least as far as I am concerned, I was talking about turning "star" potential trainees into guys that can help you succeed in V and IV in the USA, while you do other sensible things like pick up cheaper veterans at other positions and push money into your arena. If you were speaking exclusively about small countries, of course, that's a different matter that I don't really feel qualified to discuss and will gladly yield on that.

Cool. Well obviously when discussing sensational guys I am not expecting them to dominate the JBBL or the B3; but as solid backups that don't get you killed and keep your offensive flow up and who can fill in minutes as needed at PG, SG or SF I think they are really useful and cost effective. (And sell for around a million dollars.)