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The 2-3 zone is a simple zone defense. The goal of it is to clog the lanes under the basket, preventing opposing inside shots and inversely, allowing more open looks from the perimeter. But the 2-3 zone in BB doesn't seem able to accomplish this on a normal basis (at least at the higher levels). Not only does the 2-3 zone give the opposition's guards great looks from the outside, but it completely fails in preventing them from scoring on the inside too. The general consensus amongst the 2-3 zone detractors is that at no time does the 2-3 zone do a better job at defending the inside game than a man-to-man would. A lot would even argue that the 2-3 zone is the worst defense in the game and that it allows an opponent to score more points than they would have using any other defensive tactic. Sure, there are examples of games where a winning team used a 2-3 zone (with moderate success compared to other defensive tactics)... but for every one of these rarities there are many, many more games where the 2-3 zone completely fails. I'm breaking my own rule by not giving evidence but my post (essay) is already long enough and there are more than enough examples of what I'm talking about in this thread and every other2-3 zone thread in existence. So now looking back at Team A... Why is it that they are capable of playing a tactic with its intended purpose even though they do not have the right players for the job, while the 2-3 zone fails to meet its intended purpose when teams do not have the right players for the job?

(This is of course assuming that there are "right" players for the 2-3 zone)

I think the tendency to compare how one team runs man-to-man vs. how they run 2-3 is a mistake in the first place. A team that excels in 2-3 has to be built that way - and this may mean they're worse man defenders, but better team defenders (OD/ID more balanced, higher team SB). I sense a lot of negative sentiment from M2M teams who tried the 2-3 and lost, but not many teams are built specifically to run zones. The feasibility of doing this is another discussion - the idea is that it may in fact be possible to build a team to excel in the 2-3.

Regarding Team A - they played R&G correctly, but they did not succeed because it played to their weaknesses. When you say the 2-3 completely fails, I'd argue that the team in question is playing it correctly, but once again it plays to their weaknesses. It's just hidden beneath the PBP. You're supporting your argument for Team A by saying they take their shots, but there's no support for the claim that the team playing the 2-3 isn't positioning and rotating correctly. Like Team A, they are executing as intended, but they're not doing it well.

Comparing offensive tactics to defensive tactics, when only one can be accurately and unquestionably quantified with the PBP and box scores, is a false equivalence.

cont.

Last edited by RiseandFire at 4/28/2011 2:33:49 PM

2. Should shot blocking really be that powerful?

There's no denying that every team (salary not taken into consideration) would prefer to have big men with shot blocking than without it, but it doesn't make sense (at least to me) that SB is the answer. Shot blocking is not a primary skill and its effects shouldn't be as powerful as one. In real life it is not necessary to have Cs and forwards with insane shot blocking skills in order to run a 2-3 zone. Again, it does help but the real key is to have players that are great defenders in general. I know it's a little silly to compare BB to the NBA but do you really think guys like Chuck Hayes, Lamar Odom, Kevin Garnett (in his current form) or Gerald Wallace would get obliterated if they were defending in a 2-3 zone?

"Shot blocking is not a primary skill and its effects shouldn't be as powerful as one?" Wow, there's a lot wrong with that statement. Why can't shot blocking be a primary skill? The threat of a shot blocker by the basket is extremely valuable, and it impacts the attempts taken by the offense.

The players you listed make no sense to me. What's the argument here? All of them (besides maybe Hayes) would do well as forwards in a 2-3 zone with their ability to defend on the perimeter and in the post. Players resembling them could do well in BB, too. Really not sure where you're going with that one.

To summarize everything really quickly:
- It's silly to use hypothetical arguments to defend the 2-3 zone.
- It's silly to make claims for or against the 2-3 zone without backing them up with hard facts and evidence.
- Even if the 2-3 zone "works" with specialized players it's not right that it requires special conditions for it to be effective while the other tactics in the game (excluding the new ones) do as their intended without specialized players.
- If shot blocking is the key to making the 2-3 zone consistently effective, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
- This took way too long to write and I'm considering this my BB essay for the year.
- If you managed to read this all the way to the end without getting bored or looking away in disgust give yourself a pat on the back.

Is the owner of a team called the Philosopher Kings really dismissing hypotheticals with appeals to ridicule? I'm flummoxed.

The point remains that there's a strong counterargument to the idea that "2-3 is broken," and your main defenses (no pun intended) are logically unsound. Once again, I don't care if I'm wrong. I just think the argument against 2-3 needs to be a lot stronger.

I guess I did midunderstand. It sounded like you were saying 'You are a noob, who cares what you think', in a nicer way. Apologies for reading it wrong.

I am not sure that the original poster's idea was what I would suggest, but I wouldnt discount his suggestion for any reason other than the merits of his ideas. In my opinion it wouldnt hurt to at least slow things down a bit to see the long term effect of what I consider big changes to the game the last couple of seasons. Stop non cosmetic changes altogether? maybe not. Slow them down to see how things go? Perhaps not a bad idea.

I guess I did midunderstand. It sounded like you were saying 'You are a noob, who cares what you think', in a nicer way. Apologies for reading it wrong.

I am not sure that the original poster's idea was what I would suggest, but I wouldnt discount his suggestion for any reason other than the merits of his ideas. In my opinion it wouldnt hurt to at least slow things down a bit to see the long term effect of what I consider big changes to the game the last couple of seasons. Stop non cosmetic changes altogether? maybe not. Slow them down to see how things go? Perhaps not a bad idea.

In any case i didn't want to be disrespectful with him.


All i think is that i dislike the idea of having 1 year without any change...


PD: I liked more the 2-3 of the past than the 2-3 we have now.


Last edited by Marot at 4/28/2011 5:31:41 PM

Charles has said 2-3 isn't broken

Here is a very superficial study.

BB-Charles used it once in a league game and lost and once to slaughter some lowly bot team in the cup.
BB-Forrest hasn't used it this season.
BB-Marin hasn't used it this season or last season.
BB-Patrick hasn't used it this season but did use it once last season. He tried it in the SF and was slaughtered.
BB-Uroš hasn't used it this season or last season.
BB-Edju hasn't used it this season.
BB-Jason hasn't used it this season.
BB-Mark has used it once this season but lost. But last season he used it 3 times!
BB-Tomer loves it! He hasn't used it this season but used last season a whopping 9 times, wow, mind you the first 5 games in which he used it he lost!

So the BBs themselves almost never use it, and when they do they lose. I will leave everyone to draw their own conclusion from this.

I think they must have some moral code to lose in purpose. I personally would watch opponents skills all the time... even if its kind of lame.

I have a (rather baseless, so rather pointless) theory as to why 2-3 zone doesn't work for frigging anybody.

Are you ready to hear it anyway?

OK, here it is: The point guard is important.

I know, can you believe it? It sounds crazy, but the guy bringing the ball up the floor actually needs to be guarded by someone or he's in danger of setting up a successful offense, which could lead to points or other such nonsense.

I'm not in the mood to dig up the matchids, but I'm certain I've seen a few games where a powerful LI team was thwarted by a 3-2 zone with lots of OD. I'm thinking Heathens pulled it off at least once, but can't be arsed to check.

As little sense as it makes, has anyone tried playing a 1-3-1 against LI teams?

Last edited by darykjozef at 5/3/2011 9:25:01 AM

Yeah, after I posted I went through the trouble of finding his match history. It seems massive OD works best against LI teams, which is friggin retarded.