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I think it needs to be noted that there are two trypes of relegators. There are those that "did the right thing" and fought to exhaustion to stay up and at the end of the season have no money or even a debt when they enter the lower division. Often these teams then struggle in the next division as their revenues are so bad, their players are too expensive and they need to get rid of some of their favourite players who sometimes have been with the team for many seasons. This is a source of great pain and sometimes they will drop a second division before they can stop the rot.

Then there are the "tankers" who realised they had little chance to stay up and spent their season preparing for the one to follow. They will drop down with massive savings and the players needed to bounce right back up.

There is a world of differnce between these two. The first really needs a great draft pick to save their team and maybe even keep the player in the game. For the second the draft pick is just mustard.

There are those that "did the right thing" and fought to exhaustion to stay up and at the end of the season have no money or even a debt when they enter the lower division.Often these teams then struggle in the next division as their revenues are so bad,

but they also have bigger human capital then, i also don't see this teams fight again for relegation. And usually they have a bit higher income then teams who fight succesful against relegation and still need to pay more then they can afford to stay in the league.

I rarely see, that manager who relegates end up in a fight against relegation again, without beeing pretty inactive even before and not trying to stay.

Also the new promoted team need to burn money to stay in the division then too, so the need for them is also higher then in the other cases for the push. While the relegated team have chanches that the lower division isn't maxed out yet, to get money again.

So casual relegated team have a worse position then tankers, but still a good one for there new challenge. So i don't really agree with that:

There is a world of differnce between these two. The first really needs a great draft pick to save their team and maybe even keep the player in the game.

Also those draft pick is usually only for the worst and second worse team, normally the relegated team who play relegation fighted harder for staying in the higher league and don't get those players.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 7/9/2012 3:50:45 AM

and need to catch up to theis opponent through a better draft pick(this is something promoted team would need)

That's where we have completely different views. You want a team that promotes (was the strongest team in his league) to receive the first draft pick in addition to his promotion bonus. How is that helping against tanking. If I get a great draftee and know I have slight chances to win, I will just rack up money and train that draft pick the whole season. If I relegate and receive that draftee, I can't just throw the season to train him, as I need to compete to get back up. See the difference?

you really think that most promoted team promotes again int he next level since they are naturally the strongest team in the league above. The relegated teams, in lower league are so weak that they relegated aggain, which you can say with your experience where you even didn't loose a game(i think not even win a game would show it much better, but that would be also a unrealistic example)

You have completely misunderstood my point.

ok the promoted team play such a crap, that he really wins game, instead of loosing then punish him.

What?...

In HT system as a example for a youth academy program, you basically have the same money and don't need to deserve the right to get a good talent in playing bad.

A weakest team should always pick higher than the strongest team. Academys remove the advantage, unless the academy pool get's inserted in the draft. This would be ok as everyone can get your molded player.

i hope so, push is that you need stronger for your new task from outside help

khm... total blur again.

A weakest team should always pick higher than the strongest team. Academys remove the advantage, unless the academy pool get's inserted in the draft. This would be ok as everyone can get your molded player.

normally order of the strength in the league, which the draft is about balancing out:

top group: 2-3 top team, and the relegated team(two-three get crappy picks, one get a genious one)

upper lower group: get a fair picker, sometimes something useful but in a fair relation to there strength

lower average group: also get fair chanches related to the other groups

weakest group: 2-3 team who stayed in league + newly protoed team. Some get quite early pick, other get the worst.

Is that really somekind of balancing?

That's where we have completely different views. You want a team that promotes (was the strongest team in his league) to receive the first draft pick in addition to his promotion bonus. How is that helping against tanking. If I get a great draftee and know I have slight chances to win, I will just rack up money and train that draft pick the whole season. If I relegate and receive that draftee, I can't just throw the season to train him, as I need to compete to get back up. See the difference?

i trained 18 yo even in a harder enviroment without throwing a season, i often selled quite useful draft pick which helps my team also. But with the new merch rules, tanking is the oppurtunity to catch up in the merchandise area ;) And managing towards succes.

Your case about the draft has some merit but how is it relevant to this thread about tanking ?
So I will ask again, more to the point, what's the main incentive for tanking, the draft pick or cash ?
Why are we talking about the draft when everything is about the money ?

You are mistaken on a lot of your assumptions. In short, you talk crap.

Nowadays, most teams don't promote back like you seem to say.

Let's travel to Germany D.III.
We will look at the two 8th of each league's conference in season 18 and see if they promoted on season 19.
Easy to look at.

I will present the result like this : a/b/c
a is the nr of teams which promoted back
b is the nr of teams which didn't
c is the nr of teams which became bots

III.1 : 1/1/0
2 : 0/2/0
3 : 0/2/0
4 : 0/2/0
5 : 0/2/0
6 : 0/2/0
7 : 0/1/1
8 : 1/0/1
9 : 2/0/0
10 : 1/1/0
11 : 0/1/1
12 : 0/1/1
13 : 1/1/0
14 : 0/2/0
15 : 0/1/1
16 : 1/0/1

So out of 32 teams, 7 promoted back, 19 failed to promote back, 6 are now bots.

Same with Bundesliga, 1 team in D.II, 1 team in D.III.

Same with German D.II : 3 teams promoted back, 4 teams failed to promote back, 1 team relegated to D.IV.

At first glance, it is harder to promote back in lower leagues. The competition is more even as teams can't stockpile cash easily.

Tanking is primarily beneficial to top league teams.
Top leagues teams are not interested in the draft, they have cash to buy themselves trainees and they need already developed players not crappy 18 yo.
Look at U21, almost all in lower leagues.
Lower league teams rely on draftees.
Top league teams buy those draftees when the salary becomes unmanageable for the lower league teams.

Top league teams can make a fortune (from a lower league perspective) in a few weeks of tanking. Do you want to make us believe they are incredibly interested in the draft that costs money to scout and needs luck ?
Bundesliga's last draft : 1st choice was a 4k MVP PF who was kept, 2nd choice was a 5.5k PAS C sold for 237k, 3rd choice was a 3.7k PAS C sold for 1k, 4th choice was a 4.5k AS SF sold for 250k, 5th choice was a 4.4k SS PG who was kept.
Why are you creating a problem out of this ?

Let's talked about real issues.

So out of 32 teams, 7 promoted back, 19 failed to promote back, 6 are now bots.

thx you for udnerlining my point, even if a bit more then every fourth team promoted back which say my top 4 prognose was a bit pessimistic.

Why are you creating a problem out of this ?

since i didn't undersand that the need of a draft is pushing the top 4 team of a league, and to make it fair just a single one and punishing the others ;)

And that you need the draft since, else everybody would have the same chanches on a good draft even the old top team who stayed in league, instead of deserving a good pick in failing to win games.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 7/9/2012 4:07:18 AM

i trained 18 yo even in a harder enviroment without throwing a season, i often selled quite useful draft pick which helps my team also.

When was this hard enviroment for you? Season 4,5? You have always been an upper section team. Making the playoffs.
Being a promoted team is a lot more easier, than being a team that has relegated. That is a fact.

i trained then in cup/scrimamge, in hoepless away games etc.

the digit was double, maybe you could also count dincmen as one of then, even when he had 2 skills above 7 when i got him(maybe even one at ten)

I must not understand what you are saying.

Can you clarify why it is related to tanking ?

kukoc say when you get a good draft pick, when you are succesfull people will start tanking.

So i replied to him out of my view, which don't see why you need to keep a draft to avoid tanking.


Last edited by CrazyEye at 7/9/2012 4:37:42 AM

I didn't understand he said you need to keep the draft to avoid tanking.
He just disagrees with you about exchanging the draft picks, it is unrelated to tanking.