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I saw some table saying that one is more PG/SG centered and the second one is more SG/SF centered, but I do not remember which was which.

As someone who used Motion in the past, I would find the answer to this and the following questions.

1) How much the offense shifts when one of the guards or the SF is the better scorer
2) The effect of the opponent's defense on the offense (weak spots and mismatches, PF/C taking more shots)
3) At what point secondaries on PF/C have diminishing returns

Last edited by Big Dogs at 9/17/2023 11:39:24 PM

Psst. SB trains ID and RB faster than u think.


Last edited by CoachP at 9/22/2023 11:36:14 AM

This is a bit of a philosophical divide no doubt.

Personally, I like a mix of both. I like some soft details revealed, but I am not sure this game even exists right now if it was all open knowledge for the past decade. That would have, long ago, turned BB into an excel sheet with no mystery left to it.

It's a long-term game. That, I am sure we can all agree on.

And maybe we can all agree that Buzzerbeater also a game that fosters patience and discipline. There are so few games like this nowadays.

Slowly, over years, working together to ferret out information is part of what has made the community special and strong.

I agree with cleaning up the game manual, but I don't want exact numbers revealed to the entire manager base. Equity is when those who work hard and put in more time are rewarded. This game has equity right now. The more curious you are, the more you discover. The lazier you are, the less you know.

Personally, I'd like to keep it that way.

Be more like Charlie than Veruca. That's my motto.


Last edited by CoachP at 9/22/2023 11:47:03 AM

- Shooting Fouls: Increasing a players ID or OD does not change their foul rate. SB will slightly decrease their foul rate.

Anyone noticed that quite often this is not reflected in the game? Ironically it seems like players with high SBs have a higher tendency to commit shooting fouls.

I do remember reading somewhere that players with high SB will tend to attempt more blocks which then results in a higher chance for a foul (it was years ago tho, and I am not sure how accurate is that info as well).

Would be great if anyone can share their experiences on his matter. IMO it doesn't seem like it's working the way it is supposed to.

Thanks for verifying it.

Since this is the case, does that mean that the old way of all ID and minimal SB the ideal way to create bigs?

I remember reading that when a shot attempt is made, it is first compared with SB to see if the player manages to block the shot, and if they don't manage to block the shot, it is then compared to ID/OD to see if the shot hits or misses.

So rather than risking your players fouling out thanks to the huge number of blocks they attempt, it would be more logical to give up on attempting to block the shot and just focus on decreasing the opponents shot quality right? The opponents get a low quality shot (which has a high chance of missing) while your player doesn't contest the shot, hence will not commit as many shooting fouls. What do you think about this situation, does it make sense?

Your order of actions is incorrect and the whole concept has its problems.

It starts with OD/ID (defense against the player) and only after a shot is taken, SB (defense against the shot) kicks in.

Example 1:
Your PG passes the ball to your C. He has no defender and a calculated FG% of 70%. So in this case, there is no defender who
a) decreases the calculated FG%
b) to alter/block the shot

In this case, the C will score in 70% of attempts.

Example 2:
Your PG passes the ball to your C. He has now a defender. The FG% of 70% will decrease. The offense of your C will be calculated against the defense of the other player. Your player will have two options:
a) try to score, because his FG% is still high
b) pass the ball, because the defender is way too strong

If your C tries to attempt the shot, SB will kick in.
There are several possibilities now.
1 - the shot is blocked
2 - shot is altered and misses
3 - shot is altered, but goes in
4 - shot block attempt fails and it goes in --> shooting foul plus and 1
5 - shot block attempt fails and miss --> shooting foul

Every shooting foul is a failed shot block attempt. So yes, higher SB will decrease your shooting foul rate.

It doesn't matter how high or low your SB is, the player will always try to alter/block the shot. But a SB 1 C will be absolutely overpowered and tend to foul. So if you go for "giving up the block", it will backfire.
What you always have to keep in mind is the offense of your opponent. Sure, you can increase your ID to 25, but than the engine will search for other missmatches and try to outplay your defender. If you keep your ID more or less on the same level like the attaking offense, you will have more defended shot attempts.

Last edited by Nachtmahr at 10/10/2023 1:21:44 AM

It starts with OD/ID (defense against the player) and only after a shot is taken, SB (defense against the shot) kicks in.

Ah, thanks for the info. Now that changes everything. SB looks like a safety net now.

However, as I mentioned in my previous post, I seem to observe the opposite of this:

It doesn't matter how high or low your SB is, the player will always try to alter/block the shot. But a SB 1 C will be absolutely overpowered and tend to foul.

From what you say it seems like every player will attempt to block, which I observe to not be the case, and neither am I alone in this. How do you explain very high SB players picking up more shooting fouls than their lower SB counterparts?

Tho yes I think one very good point you brought up is the opponent's offense and how the GE searches for mismatches. I do recall reading about that. So even if I have a ID 25 player, my opponents can still attack the other players.

From what you say it seems like every player will attempt to block, which I observe to not be the case, and neither am I alone in this. How do you explain very high SB players picking up more shooting fouls than their lower SB counterparts?

SB1 or 2 has almost no impact, but it doesn't mean, the player is not trying to block.
If you have ID20 and SB2, your defender will take away a hige amount of the FG%, let's say from 70% to 40%. SB2 is just so low, it will alter the shot on a minimum level. Maybe it drops by 0.5% FG%. But the atzempt is still there. You will have most of the time "shot altered, but goes in" as a result. If it is a bad shot block attempt, you will get a shooting foul.

It also depends on the level you play. In Div. 3 a ID13/SB13 guy could be the best solution. Give him more defense and the engine will search for other missmatches. Go with someone who has lower SB and he will foul more. The reason is, he is good enough to defend, but one step too late for the block.

Do you have numbers? Skills, amount of defended shots, amount of shooting fouls? Data that shows, that high SB foul more than low SB players?

Something like that (It is in german, but I think you get the main info)

Skills: JS 5 – JR 6 – OD 15 – HA 10 – DR 8 – PA 4 – IS 5 – ID 12 – RB 6 – SB 12

Haek lief in 25 Spielen auf und war immer mein Starter. Er spielte 871 Minuten und steigerte sich deutlich im Vergleich zur Vorsaison.
215 Defenseaktionen (im Schnitt 9,8 pro Spiel)
160 davon erfolgreich (74,4%)
66 Blocks (30,7%)
11 shooting fouls (5,1%)
Dazu holte er sich noch 37 Steals.


I made detailed analysis with skills and actions. The rate of shooting fouls dropped to 0% at some point. The better he got, his amount of defended shots dropped.
So, show me your numbers, which validate your points.

Last edited by Nachtmahr at 10/10/2023 2:30:58 PM

Interesting info. I don't have supporter to extract the play by play so I only relied on personal fouls. But for both the NT and U21, the players with high SB (for their positions) coincidentally have the highest amount of fouls (and in the few matches I've watched they got into foul trouble all via shooting fouls. But I get what you mean with needing a detailed analysis, let me see if I can pull something out when I'm free, or maybe some people might be able to help me extract info of our NT/U21 matches.