BuzzerBeater Forums

It's a little misleading saying the game isn't competitive for new users. It is, provided you measure yourself against those in the same league. If you're going to measure new users against NBBA teams, they are bound not to measure up.

It is not what was said. It was said that a new user will not be able to get to that level due to this difference, as my examples showed.

Your argument that no team has been able to break into a specific conference might not necessarily be a big issue. Those teams have been playing longer, had more time to invest in developing their economy and account balance. To remove what would be careful planning on their part would be even more unfair, no?

So what your saying is that in those 4 seasons the best managers where the seasons that the best german managers joined the game, and on all the other 13 seasons, all the managers just does not know how to build a team?
Sounds not realy reliable... saying the least.

I'm sure that if cap is implementing - it will be helpful for older teams and it will make competition for younger teams harder than now.
Older team still would have advantage because their players would have better secondaries, experience, etc. But their salaries will be the same as salaries of younger team ;-)
So BB without cap is great information for younger teams. Without cap difference between older and younger clubs should decrease faster.
Trust me, I'm on Your side, I know something about competition with older clubs ;-)

Basically you just repeated the same that you've already written before, w/o relating to whot I've wrote in response.

So, let's focus on a single argument;
Adding an assets reset once every few seasons is another option I've written.

Last edited by Pini פיני at 11/6/2011 12:56:17 PM

So what your saying is that in those 4 seasons the best managers where the seasons that the best german managers joined the game, and on all the other 13 seasons, all the managers just does not know how to build a team?
Sounds not realy reliable... saying the least.

I never said all the managers in the past 13 seasons didn't know how to build a team, you did as quoted above.

I said that the managers who joined early and remained on top are there for a reason, because they are the best. And they are the best by virtue of having a plan and executing it to get favourable results. Newer teams have already surpassed a fair amount of managers who joined in the first 4 seasons. But to beat the best?

Let me simplify it. Think of it as a race and everyone is running their own racecar. Obviously, if you start earlier you get the advantage of running a certain distance before other racers start their engines. Now, if you're slow (Not a good manager), faster racers will eventually overtake you. If you're fast, and am at least as fast as the racer trying to catch you, the gap will always be there. You will just have to wait until he makes a mistake before you can try to overtake. You don't go to the race stewards and ask that the guy in front has to drive slower.


But in BB there is a point where newer teams will compete on equal terms. It's the economic tipping point of zero return. If you get your roster to the point where you're paying so much in salaries that you're barely making a profit, you're already competing on equal footing with the best teams. Except those running non-sustainable deficit economies.

Lets summarize few facts.

1) One of the two conferences (didn't checked the other) in the german league did not hold a single team that is newer than those joined at the 4 seasons!

2) It is not that the best BB-managers in german had joined only until the season-4.

3) Your team had joined in season-3 and is playing in the first league on your nation.
I'll say that it follows my claim, and also explains why you are against it.

4) If you are caliming that the best BB managers are in the first league - just reset all assets (players, arena size, etc.) every few seasons and prove it.

I dont think this should be changed in any way even though i see that some teams are in higher divisions just because they came into this game early.

Basically you just contradict yourself, and proved what I said by saying this line.

If you look at how thing are in real life sport it is pretty much like it is here to. To start a lot later then another team will for sure mean that you will be at an disadvantage.

The best leagues - the NBA for example - has the rules I'm pointing at, in order of having a more competative league.
There is no argue that they succeed.

Last edited by Pini פיני at 11/6/2011 3:22:35 PM

The best leagues - the NBA for example - has the rules I'm pointing at, in order of having a more competative league.
There is no argue that they succeed.

The NBA does not have a relegation/promotion structure.

The best leagues - the NBA for example - has the rules I'm pointing at, in order of having a more competative league.
There is no argue that they succeed.

The NBA does not have a relegation/promotion structure.

So??? how does it contradicts the idea?
They are also not a "PC" game, and they are paying with real dolars...

The "relegation/promotion structure" just splits a league into several divisions.
It does not contradicts the idea of soft and hard cap, it does not contradicts the idea of assets' reset, and it most certaintly does not contradicts the idea of competativeness.

The best leagues - the NBA for example - has the rules I'm pointing at, in order of having a more competative league.

Disagree. Only 30 teams, which joined at first, have chance to fair competition in NBA...
In BB we want to have more than 30 users...
Salary cap in NBA helps to create fair competition because NBA is closed league. In BB salary cap will create opposite effect because we have many young teams and incomes in lower divisions are smaller.

The best leagues - the NBA for example - has the rules I'm pointing at, in order of having a more competative league.

Disagree. Only 30 teams, which joined at first, have chance to fair competition in NBA...
In BB we want to have more than 30 users...
Salary cap in NBA helps to create fair competition because NBA is closed league. In BB salary cap will create opposite effect because we have many young teams and incomes in lower divisions are smaller.

The NBA contains teams from different market-size.
There the difference in "money" is due to that, and it is not important from what the difference is from.
The "cap-system" had been designed for this reason and for this alone - to make the league more competative.

[And ofcourse not all of the teams in the NBA are there from day one.]

How "amazing" is that those who fight against having a more competative game (Caps, assets reset, etc.) are exactly those who are at the high divisions.
Very weired indeed...

4) If you are caliming that the best BB managers are in the first league - just reset all assets (players, arena size, etc.) every few seasons and prove it.

This is a ridiculous solution to something that is not really a problem in the first place.

This is a copy-paste from (200771.52), worth repeating here:
This is a long-term game by design. A change like that would require a huge change to just about everything in the game (the exceptions would pretty much be the game engine, game viewer, some support functionality such as the transfer list, and the forums).

When you join, you compete against the guys who start about the same time in your country. Does this system have problems? Sure. When a country grows very slowly (or not at all), many new users are put in a tough spot. The pyramid shape of the league structure may not be the best option for small countries; for bigger ones it is a necessity. Every season, however, a skilled manager progresses against those who started around the same time and "gets put on the next level of competition" (not necessarily league level). The point is that you are always firstly competing against your peers. That keeps the game interesting for as many people as possible.

In (200771.42) you were already offered some team age vs. league level data. This is a limited set, but it is interesting in the sense that it was collected for other purposes than these threads and is therefore randomly picked for the purposes of this thread. I cleaned the data here for quicker reading (but you can find the original data following the links):

Season 13 vs. Season 18 teams in SM-Koris (in the order of starting time and league level)

s3 / I ....... s3 / I
s3 / I ....... s3 / III (my team, 4-time champion, one of the s13 teams)
s3 / II ...... s3 / III (former champion)
s3 / II ...... s3 / III (one of the s13 teams)
s3 / III ..... s4 / III (one of the s13 teams)
s3 / III ..... s4 / IV (one of the s13 teams)
s4 / III ..... s4 / IV (one of the s13 teams)
s4 / IV ..... s4 / IV
s4 / IV ..... s4 / IV (current champion, one of the s13 teams)
s4 / IV ..... s4 / IV (one of the s13 teams)
s4 / IV ..... s4 / IV
s4 / IV ..... s6 / IV
s4 / IV ..... s6 / IV
s4 / IV ..... s7 / IV
s4 / IV ..... s7 / IV
s5 / IV ..... s8 / IV

As we can see, in Season 18 we have 7 teams that participated in the top league also in Season 13. What is more interesting is that the average team is getting younger (in terms of starting time, all teams are of course now older by five seasons), although the median team both during Season 13 and Season 18 started during Season 4.

Note that all the top four teams (in terms of starting time/league level) of Season 13 are out of the top competition for Season 18. The remaining 3 teams that started in the top league in Season 3 (which was the first season in Suomi) all make an appearance in the top league either during Season 13 or Season 18. One of these three teams is currently in div II, another one in div III.

To make it to the top league in Suomi, and to compete there, it seems to now take about 10 seasons (and skill, of course). The last two or three seasons have seen some major spending for title runs, which has made maintaining a top team very difficult. That is turning old powerhouses into struggling teams (the most successful league team ever is now in div III). The top teams are not making a profit anymore, they are running full speed just to stay where they are. The gap has been closed, and new teams are closing in. You may think 10 seasons is too long (and in bigger countries it is probably more than 10 seasons), but is it really? This is a long-term game, by design.