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Dude, don't you play to win? I thought that was the whole point. Succeeding in something. You can create a player with 150+ TSP, you can devote your time to create a team in a way nobody has done before and see if you can succeed with it, you can handicap yourself and go with a homegrown team and see where it gets you, you can aim at having the largest arena, largest bank account, get to and win your top league whatever.

I can speak for myself and I will say that what the other guy said reflects the way I'm looking at this game. I also suspect most people play to achieve something, because achieving make them feel good. Understanding how things work is a means to an end not the actual goal here. Nobody plays basketball with the ultimate goal of understanding how tactics work or understanding why one way of shooting is better than another. People play to win games, the rest helps them achieving that goal.

Most managers do not enjoy the training system. A lot of managers despise the training system, we had threads with several hundred messages about changing training. Those who like it usually say they like it because of the challenge it provides. So again, you have people who like to train because they feel good from overcoming the obstacles that are embedded in the system.

Nobody has ever come on the forums to say they enjoy training to satisfy their need for control. They either train to create someone who will kick ass, or they train to help the U21/NT, or because the player will help them compete and win games.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/31/2017 10:30:12 AM

I have already explained that better players does not mean better players for everyone, because there are limits to the maximum achievable and because the difference from 80 to 100 is not the same as the difference from 95 to 105.

The training system is very predictable, it's one of the most well known aspects of this game. Much more so than how the GE works and how to take advantage of it.

But again you are mistaking the actual purpose. People don't train just for the challenge of getting 48+ on 3 or 6 players, they train to create new players and for many managers creating the players is not even the ultimate goal. Most people train to make a profit or to create a special player who can help them down the line. Nobody trains because they think playing players 48 minutes is a challenge in itself that is worthy taking on.

And people who train while tanking absolutely do calculate that it will make their teams better. The only reason for tanking while training is to make more money, so that when you decide you want to compete again you will have enough to create a good team. And farm teams, those who only train monster players in lower divisions, they have another purpose too: helping their NT or U21. So they sacrifice their personal gain for their community, but the goal is not training even for them, the goal is seeing their player helping the NT win games.

BB managers don't follow the pleasure craving pattern that follow for example a drug addict. This game is the opposite to that.

I think it's more sadomasochism at times, and I guess I hate that I love it.

Very interesting thread. And to veer away from pleasure centers in the brain talk and more towards the original intent of the thread (new managers, TL prices, futility) allow me to throw in my two cents (which is worth about a 3rd of a cent since Utopia). A bit of context: I started in season 6 in D5 and worked my way up to playoffs in D2, so I'm not an expert, but I do understand both how to be somewhat successful and also the massive increase in Futility now compared to back then. I quit just after Utopia, and have returned and in my 3rd season with this team. So I get how it used to be and also how it is being new now.

The player market is a complete joke for new players, I cant afford decent trainees or decent improvements to my roster with established players based on what I make in revenue now, even though with my arena improvements and frugal salary I am probably the most profitable team in my series. It used to be if you were diligent with the TL, you could find a bargain or a player slips through once in awhile and by being diligent I could improve my team (that was actually quite fun). Those days are gone, you aren't going to get lucky with a player price these days, unless in extremely rare cases. Lemonshine is absolutely correct in identifying the problem, there just aren't enough decent players being trained/sold to make the game interesting for new players, and the vast majority quit, usually quite quickly. If it takes 10 seasons to 'slingshot' into relevance, this game will never grow. Here are the problems new players face, particularly in larger countries (countries with 25 players have different problems, but I think it is unwise to improve the game for these problems, as you aren't going to get a boon in users from these countries regardless):

The arenas are so small that it takes at least a couple of seasons just to make your Arena decent enough to profit....boring-quit.

Few new managers know about things like GS and Enth, and while it is the managers responsibility to know the game, we are addressing 'how to keep new managers interested' I suggest easier access to this information and how important it is. 'I have better players but this noob in my D4 is beating me?' BS-quit.

One terrible solution many new managers engage in is the get-rich-quick method of buying cheap 38 year olds with decent skills, they promote up and are way out of their league as well as losing all of their revenue to players who are now so old that they suck. Futility-quit.

There are quite a few managers who have been in D4 for many seasons, and when they finally get to promoting, the slope is so steep that they go 1-21 in D3. Screw this-quit.

I also notice many of the newly created teams for new managers take a long time from when they sign up for a team and when they get it. Often times the new team will show their last log in (which means when they signed up for a team) as being three or more weeks. If it takes this long, they already forgot about signing up for BB, this cant help many of them get involved immediately, and often new teams in my series never even log on to their team (not counting the shown 'when I signed up for a team' log on).

Trainers are so damn expensive now that it impedes the very training needed to improve and become interested in a team. Training pops are often the most interesting part of the week for new players, who are stuck either destroying bots or getting destroyed by more established managers in their first couple of seasons. If new players could both understand how training will get them to the promised land as well as having access to said training (through a decent and fairly affordable trainer) it would go a long way to keeping them interested. New managers are faced will very few interesting things early in the game, and they quit. Better access to training through affordable trainers could help solve two problems, more trained players and more interested new managers.

(

Here are the obstacles to improvements that might make more new managers stay, and this is where my comments tend to get very unpopular.

BB has always been a 'top-down' game. Those veteran successful managers are established in the community, they have friends and clout and ....well.... easier access to the ear of those who make changes. In essence, their opinions matter, new players opinions don't (this is not worth debating, really. Lets assume the usual 'we listen to everyone equally' is heard, responded to, and moved on from). Those who have worked hard, been diligent, made friends, and are successful now are very happy with the extremely steep slope of advancement in this game, and they are very unwilling to accept changes to the game that might flatten the slope (to their disadvantage). I get that, I would be the same way. The problem is that the steep slope is what causes the futility-quit epidemic that has the game down to 1/3rd of it's users since I first quit the game way back when. There are guys who have dominated my D4 and have pretty solid teams by D4 standards who go to D3 and go 2-20 and quit. A big part of this is their lack of understanding of what it really takes to move up successfully, but the steep slope is also to blame. The point I am making is about keeping new managers interested and growing the game and not 'make things easier for me specifically'.

I say all of this because one of the problems with suggestions/changes to the game is that if any suggestion would help flatten the slope or make newer managers more relevant and interested, they often would work against the top tier veterans from remaining entrenched, and the outcry from managers who are more established (see above) tend to have more weight with those in power to make changes than a bunch of newbie managers no one has ever heard of. This is why it is a bad idea for those who make decisions to become 'friends' with the long time managers, or to have their own teams themselves ()not talking forum mods, talking actual people who make decisions about the direction of the game). There usually is a firewall between these people and the gaming community, which this game has never really had, and directions that can grow the community get influenced by the connections between veteran 'friends' and those in power.
Sure, we can turn this into a debate about whether this actually happens, but that isn't as productive as addressing the problems with keeping new managers interested, it's tangential.

When addressing the problem with an ever shrinking user base, it is much easier to create impactful solutions from the bottom-up than the top-down. It is much easier to replace the top 16 managers than it is to replace the bottom 256 (I say this wearing head to toe Kevlar and hiding behind a concrete barrier screaming in my best Swarzeneggar "GET DOWN!")

I have the perfect logical solution for those who think like you Evaristo: make it impossible for new teams to compete and boost the veteran retention to the maximum!

With this you ensure a slow decline in users and guaranteed death of the game. Besides, remind me who was the guy who claimed people play this game to train and not to compete?

Last edited by Lemonshine at 9/3/2017 4:15:18 PM

Well, I never actually said to take away advantages of veteran teams. I merely stated that veterans should not have the power to sway decisions about changes based on their desire to maintain that retention. Seems like the same thing, but there is a subtle difference. Also, I didn't miss your semi subtle attempt to dismiss my comments based on the differences between season 6 and now (I was around well past season 20, if you missed that), I just felt it more productive to move past them. It does seem rather odd that someone with 3 seasons of experience is so in tune with the game the way you are, I compliment you on such a speedy path to such extreme enlightenment. If only we all could have such razor sharp insight maybe there would be no need for this discussion?

Also, we disagree completely on who would stay and who would go. Most successful veterans may be angry at the leveling of the slope based on changes, but few would actually leave, they are invested and hooked, which is part of the reason they are so successful. This game has lost two thirds of its users over the past several years, and mainly because of the reasons I have posted above. The two factors that can kill an online game are: belief in rampant and unchecked cheating, and futility. Without finding a way to not only attract but keep new managers, the downward spiral of the user base will continue. It really is no more complicated than that.

Last edited by Heathcote at 9/3/2017 3:53:24 PM

Some very vocal veterans were very angry at the lack of competition in their leagues and quit. Now because all the measures taken in the last few seasons were aimed at boosting competition, including mergers, higher salary floors etc, I would think it's safe to assume that the general view from Marin and the others making the decisions is that allowing more people to compete is a good idea. Therefore they really should agree with you.