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Fix the salary formulas, or rebalance the engine, or fix the problems in 2-3 and you've got a winner. Giving up and just eliminating the tactic overall is a loser.

I've always said that the problem is deeper than just improving SB and fixing 2-3. Right now OD suffocates 3 point shooting and until that end of the equation is also fixed I predict outside offenses will remain dinosaurs in BB. Top division bigs shoot 55-65%. SB will help decrease that but the guards are all still shooting 30-38% with low 3-point %'s. Top division in Canada didn't have a single player shoot over 30% from the arc last season with a decent # of attempts.

Bet those guards are taking tough shots because of LI offense and/or have low JR.

Fix the salary formulas, or rebalance the engine, or fix the problems in 2-3 and you've got a winner. Giving up and just eliminating the tactic overall is a loser.

I've always said that the problem is deeper than just improving SB and fixing 2-3. Right now OD suffocates 3 point shooting and until that end of the equation is also fixed I predict outside offenses will remain dinosaurs in BB. Top division bigs shoot 55-65%. SB will help decrease that but the guards are all still shooting 30-38% with low 3-point %'s. Top division in Canada didn't have a single player shoot over 30% from the arc last season with a decent # of attempts.

That could easily be fixed in the salary formula too, though. Make OD for PGs as expensive as it is for a SG for a start and suddenly those high OD/PA guys are getting their salaries jacked up just like the high JS/JR SGs. Maybe reduce the cost of JR (and improve the training speed) so you're not stuck with guys with 12 or less JR going against a wall of 18+ OD with the inevitable result. And all they really need to do to make 2-3 much more effective is have the inside guys have their ID rather than OD defend passes down low as well in the 2-3 - because the fundamental problem is how easy it is to generate uncontested shots. Add in some general tweaks like maybe shotblocking leading to drawing a lot more offensive fouls on penetrating guards, low handling/driving maybe leading to open big men muffing the ball when it's dumped to them much more frequently, and perhaps you peg LI back some. Maybe bump up the shooting percentage slightly on uncontested jumpers and threes for skilled players, and lower the effectiveness of OD against JS/JR by including SB into the calculation (so a high OD/low SB guard would be great at pressuring, but easier to shoot over than one with balanced OD/SB). You'd need to have pressure train SB too, and of course some of these ideas would likely be painful initially, but they're all alternatives that are better than just removing LI, and then eventually LP, and if people ever figured out how to build effective II teams that too.

It could be fixed with the salary formula like anything else, the problem is that managers have spent years pumping up OD in their training and now you'd be telling them that their players are way too expensive. The market would suddenly be flooded with expensive guards that are now less desireable.

I think a change like this needed to be made a long time ago to work properly because all the top players are already built the way they are. Just like the SB tweak, I would just keep tweaking the game engine to get the desired results. Tweaking the salaries will only create a lot of really pissed off users.

Bet those guards are taking tough shots because of LI offense and/or have low JR.

I bet you'd be wrong.

Here's a team in Canada D1 that plays strictly motion. They're average/above average every season and usually have one of the top 5 payrolls in the division. And every season their 3 high priced perimeter players (Kearns/Simmons/Lavigne) with high JR all shoot under 30% from the arc. Some seasons under 20%. One of the 3 is around 40% this year but that looks like a complete aberration based on his history.

http://www.buzzerbeater.com/team/24945/stats.aspx?season=23&sortBy=rating

Sure there's an argument that you need to get JR up higher to combate the high OD levels but 1: JR is extremely expensive in the salary calculator 2: Based on the terrible % it produces right now, it simply doesn't look like it's worth it's high price. 3: For some odd reason, players with 9-10 JR don't seem to shoot 3's that much worse than players with 16+ JR. That right there discourages many owners from training it.

This just isn't my opinion, this was already being discussed when I joined BB almost 10 seasons ago and absolutely nothing has been done to alter it since that time.

I think a change like this needed to be made a long time ago to work properly because all the top players are already built the way they are. Just like the SB tweak, I would just keep tweaking the game engine to get the desired results. Tweaking the salaries will only create a lot of really pissed off users.

But deleting the tactic won't cause pissed off users? ;)

But yeah, changes should have been made some time ago. It's pretty sad that a single skill in the game is what forces turnovers, is the best defense against outside shots and arguably the best defense against inside shots as well, and even worse that said skill is essentially free for big men and way too cheap for PG and SF salary formulas (and avoiding JR keeps you in that nice PG formula).

Sure there's an argument that you need to get JR up higher to combate the high OD levels but 1: JR is extremely expensive in the salary calculator 2: Based on the terrible % it produces right now, it simply doesn't look like it's worth it's high price. 3: For some odd reason, players with 9-10 JR don't seem to shoot 3's that much worse than players with 16+ JR. That right there discourages many owners from training it.

The real problem is not so much that it's expensive on its own (it's barely more expensive than OD on a SG), but that the SG formula has JS, JR and OD all highly weighted. If you start with every skill at 10, and then raise two skills to 20, the combination that leads to the highest salary is JR + OD. So of course, if you're going to train JR, and nobody's going to skimp on OD, and you've got to have JS with JR, it's going to be brutally expensive, while skimping on JR and staying in the PG formula reduces the cost of OD quite a bit as well, letting it get jacked up to those levels.

Which, incidentally, is why I still think it's not the engine's problem necessarily that outside offenses as presently constructed are relatively ineffective (outside of very few specialty cases like Silverbacks' team, for example). It's just that nobody thinks twice of having a guard with high OD, passing, handling, driving and even JS, and then dumping IS on them is free, and yet replacing that IS with a decent level of JR gets them onto the SG formula and their salary is busted.

Last season, I had a 4 player rotation at PG/SG/SF. The guards were each combo guards under 150k, the SF was 60k. Their JS/JR was 18/12, 18/13, 17/15, and 15/7. All four shot over 30% from 3, and three of the four had a FG% of 46%. The guard with 15 JR shot 38% from the field.

Unless the NBBA had an OD deficit I'm unaware of, it's very possible to build a competent outside team in a top division without spending an exorbitant amount on salary.

Then again, I don't know many teams that could match my OD that season (55952654), so perhaps the solution is to fight fire with fire. If the complaints about 2-3 are any indication, OD is just as important against inside offenses as it is against outside oriented teams.

I'm aware of your team's success and you definitely seem to be the exception to the rule. As I'm sure you're aware, there aren't very many other teams on the BB level that are having very much success with either 3 point shooter or outside based offenses.

Part of what you're sharing does seem to support the theory that high JR is not the solution to making a high percentage of 3's.

Your OD was so bad in that game, that lucky fans scored more than half of the opposing points :D

Part of what you're sharing does seem to support the theory that high JR is not the solution to making a high percentage of 3's.

It does, and given the cost/value of JR I do think the salary formula needs to be adjusted.

But, there's nothing I see that indicates that an outside team can't have success at the top levels of the game with the GE and salary formula intact, it's just that few have the inclination or resources to do so, and the current pool of players doesn't support it. It's easier to get a guard with 16 IS than a big with 16 SB.

That said, my outside rotation last year, with a trio of well-rounded 7/19/19/19 bigs would still cost less than Dionysus' team. With a trio of bigs that had 16, 10, and 9 ID, I still made it to the knockout round of B3, losing to Dionysus by 22. His closest win was the championship game, by a margin of 12.