BuzzerBeater Forums

Well, hate to beat a dead horse, but Marin pretty much admitted to fiddling with outside shooting ("very minor changes" he said) without telling anyone, until he himself came out and said so in the Q&A. So that was definitely not a season in advance.

There was that incident where daytraders had already bought dozens of draftees and then the new tax rules were implemented at the end of that same week without any notice. This is not about training or GE but it's the same principle.

Technically both SB and JR were not announced in advance either, but this just depends on how you take Marin's words. I don't take a "we may implement this" or "we're thinking about that" and similar as "letting us know" that it's guaranteed to happen. The change that Marin was clearly set on was the removal of blank lineups and ironically that didn't happen for a couple of seasons after he started fixing it.

Besides, given the previous few comments, I believe the point was that since it takes seasons to train a player, it would make sense to announce the changes before people have started training based on the old information. Unless training is also made drastically faster, as in that case the short notice wouldn't affect you that much.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 9/25/2015 11:19:20 AM

This season shooting 9/10 wins out over 16/8, when 9/10 at PG and 16/8 at SF> Also 9/10 is the teams best passer!! over 5 U21 games! ( he got 2 JR pops in 2 weeks early this season, before that he was 9/8)

16/8 SF- FGs 18/53 3s 2/15
9/10 PG- FGs 20/52 3s 2/13

But people wont utilize this or see it for what it is- JS IS EXPENSIVE AND INEFFECTIVE (but easy to train...)
Either users are too stupid or stubborn to ignore all reality of how a basketball game SHOULD simulate and play BBs funky unrealism wins the day game.

I have a theory. It's called "PG has a nice passing, so when he has a weak shooting position, and he's going to miss the throw, he will pass more often than shoot. SF doesn't have a nice passing, so in the weak shooting position and he's going to miss the throw, he will throw more often then pass..."

Have you tried SF with passing? Or you are just a LI cookie cutter with passing PG?

Last edited by Siwy at 9/26/2015 6:10:54 AM

you can see that 16 JS 8 JR shoots horrible compared to 9JS 10 JR

That would probably be because of other skills not JS/JR. If DR is too high and PA too low on the 16/8 guy he will take more shots and specifically more bad shots you'll find his FG% will be bad. In the end someone will have to take the shots...

I agree with most of your post though.

Edit: I would need to check the play by play hoping that moutlinho's tool still works to check if it's true that the SF is taking as good shots as the PG, I highly doubt that's the case. Low PA and high DR make for a ball hog. It might work if his DR is high enough to generate open shots, but if it isn't then he shouldn't really take worse shots than the PG (guarded shots, "ugly shots" as the viewer calls them, long jumpers etc).

Last edited by Lemonshine at 9/26/2015 9:28:34 AM

I don't do LI cookie cutter.

The point is that 16 JS is LI cookie cutter and 10 JR is not. What conversation are you responding too?

In what world is a high PA and high JR LI cookie cutter?

The #1 sign of LI cookie cutter is punting JR and a really bad LI cookie cutter is low PA. I pointed out he has the highest PA on the team because he does not receive good passes since the rest of the team sucks arse at PA relatively...because so many LI cookie cutters surround him.

Maybe I didn't get you cookie cutter definion. Maybe because, in fact, if I tried to make a cookie cutter PG for LI, I would try to train PS as much, as it was possible, because in LI PG should pass to inside players, not score.

What is more, I don't believe that usual managers trains JR much more than PS. According to my databases of 20 yo players, when we will consider only PG and SG's salary formulas, average player has only 0,3 level more in JR than in PS. It's not suggested to not train JR and PS before that age, so what we see, it's only the result of dumb-managers training.

However, I have to say, that their JS is usually 1,25 level higher than PS. And yes, JS it's also not suggested to be trained before 20th birthday...

So, it looks like cookie-cutter PG is not an JR idiot. It looks like it's JS idiot. And what is more, the JS idiot is usually an idiot without OD.

Did you notice the same relative total number of shots?

Maybe I didn't noticed it, I was more focused on percentage.

In this game if you have high JS you will still miss. JR works but nobody realizes it, even idiots start threads about it and if you really look at the numbers its the high JS, not high JR that doesn't work on most players. Outside shooting is overall gimped, but where the JR is there, it does work point for point.

I've been complaining about JS overtraining for almost 20 seasons now but nobody gets it or stops it, its a game design issue.

If you think about teams, which has enormous dozes of JS at any positions, but they don't have much defence to stop opponent, I agree - they may hurt you and win with even worse BB-stats than you, when you don't have strong OD, but some (overpowered, you think) OD kicks their over-paid butts.

If you think, that even one JS specialist in your team is too much, I disagree with this statement. However, we know, that you thought about the first example, I believe.

The masses will continue to create this:

Guards - high JS
Bigs - high DR/IS

Agreed with JS and IS. But I don't know, why DR is bad for bigs - it boosts some stats quite much, and it's free, so why it's bad?

Guards have- high JS. Low JR. Low PA. Decent to high OD. IF inside skills are trained- IS
forwards have- high JS, really dismal PA, horrible SB, often not much RB
bigs have- massive IS. 2nd most stat would be ID. punted/gimped SB, relatively low RB compared to IS...and if htey have trained guard stats at all, its JS, DR, OD in that order

Lots of bigs, PF types especially, have higher JS than RB. Yet and still globally shooting percentages are ultra gimp.

Why lacks of RB are bad? RB is, in my opinion, the most overpaid skill in the game. It's very, very hard to lose to game only because of rebounds, but it's the most expensive skill!
JS on PFs helps to beat their matchups lacks of OD... which they have, because many managers seems to don't care about defence. If you balance JS with OD, it's OK.




Last edited by Siwy at 9/26/2015 10:22:15 AM

(almost) Nobody is building anything that can function outside of LI in this GE. This is a design issue IMO. People have had 20 seasons to figure training out/choose to train for how the game is designed and they don't. I feel training should be adjusted to fit people, rather than watching people walk away from a game that doesn't simulate real basketball intuitively.

Actually, most of the managers doesn't care about training. And that's why training shouldn't be adjusted to fit people. Training is designed to award managers, which cares about it, and it shouldn't be realistic. If they don't want to train defence, let them don't do it. If they want to be better, they need to analyse their faults and realise, why they should train OD, ID or SB.
People won't change, so why we should change the game for them?

Always looking for something to agree with, I found this:

THe out of position training system which adds no realism, balance or real value to the game whatsoever.

However, I also saw this bit of bizarre reasoning:

Training is designed to award managers, which cares about it, and it shouldn't be realistic.

Actually, most of the managers doesn't care about training. And that's why training shouldn't be adjusted to fit people. Training is designed to award managers, which cares about it, and it shouldn't be realistic.

Actually, that is exactly the reason it should be adjusted. The problem is training effects everything else. There is a limit of good players out there because so few users find valuable enough to wait 4 to 6 seasons for trainees to be useful. This is effecting the rest of the game. I checked my league's draft from three seasons ago and only one player from the first round is being trained. When I started in season 6 in Div. IV I got a great draft pick 5k 19yr old post player with high potential. At the time with most of the my league's best player's were 6k to 8k players. That draft pick was an instant contributor in my league and helped me win and advance. Outside of a bot filled bottom league the idea of a first year trainee giving you quality minutes seems highly unlikely. The situation has changed from the first ten seasons where 100k+ were rare or not existing.

I have always been an advocate for adding college players to the draft. My suggestion is to add 20 and 21 year olds with skills limited to prominent and salaries limited to 10k. This would give at least lower and mid level teams draftees that can contribute in meaningful way without sacrificing games in for training. The drawback to these college players is it would flood the market with 10k to 50k players (after two or three seasons) of training. But I think this a good thing since 10k to 50k players are exactly the level of players most median users need to build there team. Users could still draft 18 year olds to get the full potential of a player.

Sadly, this game now requires new users three or four seasons (over a year in real time to be competitive in an active league). You are going to lose a lot of new users that way. I would have a hard time trying market an online game to my friends that takes two or three years before you can be competitive in that games community.

People won't change, so why we should change the game for them?

That is the question. This game works best when it has large active community. BuzzerBeater filled with bot-majority leagues isn't the answer. So a tweak here or there to keep it growing can be helpful. Of course, I will give that some of these tweaks have backfired. This is a problem. But a lot of tweaks have been geared towards appeasing long-term players rather new users. But the training and drafting part of the game has been in a rut for a long time and changes to it could help new users the most.