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It could be fixed with the salary formula like anything else, the problem is that managers have spent years pumping up OD in their training and now you'd be telling them that their players are way too expensive. The market would suddenly be flooded with expensive guards that are now less desireable.

I think a change like this needed to be made a long time ago to work properly because all the top players are already built the way they are. Just like the SB tweak, I would just keep tweaking the game engine to get the desired results. Tweaking the salaries will only create a lot of really pissed off users.

Bet those guards are taking tough shots because of LI offense and/or have low JR.

I bet you'd be wrong.

Here's a team in Canada D1 that plays strictly motion. They're average/above average every season and usually have one of the top 5 payrolls in the division. And every season their 3 high priced perimeter players (Kearns/Simmons/Lavigne) with high JR all shoot under 30% from the arc. Some seasons under 20%. One of the 3 is around 40% this year but that looks like a complete aberration based on his history.

http://www.buzzerbeater.com/team/24945/stats.aspx?season=23&sortBy=rating

Sure there's an argument that you need to get JR up higher to combate the high OD levels but 1: JR is extremely expensive in the salary calculator 2: Based on the terrible % it produces right now, it simply doesn't look like it's worth it's high price. 3: For some odd reason, players with 9-10 JR don't seem to shoot 3's that much worse than players with 16+ JR. That right there discourages many owners from training it.

This just isn't my opinion, this was already being discussed when I joined BB almost 10 seasons ago and absolutely nothing has been done to alter it since that time.

I think a change like this needed to be made a long time ago to work properly because all the top players are already built the way they are. Just like the SB tweak, I would just keep tweaking the game engine to get the desired results. Tweaking the salaries will only create a lot of really pissed off users.

But deleting the tactic won't cause pissed off users? ;)

But yeah, changes should have been made some time ago. It's pretty sad that a single skill in the game is what forces turnovers, is the best defense against outside shots and arguably the best defense against inside shots as well, and even worse that said skill is essentially free for big men and way too cheap for PG and SF salary formulas (and avoiding JR keeps you in that nice PG formula).

Sure there's an argument that you need to get JR up higher to combate the high OD levels but 1: JR is extremely expensive in the salary calculator 2: Based on the terrible % it produces right now, it simply doesn't look like it's worth it's high price. 3: For some odd reason, players with 9-10 JR don't seem to shoot 3's that much worse than players with 16+ JR. That right there discourages many owners from training it.

The real problem is not so much that it's expensive on its own (it's barely more expensive than OD on a SG), but that the SG formula has JS, JR and OD all highly weighted. If you start with every skill at 10, and then raise two skills to 20, the combination that leads to the highest salary is JR + OD. So of course, if you're going to train JR, and nobody's going to skimp on OD, and you've got to have JS with JR, it's going to be brutally expensive, while skimping on JR and staying in the PG formula reduces the cost of OD quite a bit as well, letting it get jacked up to those levels.

Which, incidentally, is why I still think it's not the engine's problem necessarily that outside offenses as presently constructed are relatively ineffective (outside of very few specialty cases like Silverbacks' team, for example). It's just that nobody thinks twice of having a guard with high OD, passing, handling, driving and even JS, and then dumping IS on them is free, and yet replacing that IS with a decent level of JR gets them onto the SG formula and their salary is busted.

Last season, I had a 4 player rotation at PG/SG/SF. The guards were each combo guards under 150k, the SF was 60k. Their JS/JR was 18/12, 18/13, 17/15, and 15/7. All four shot over 30% from 3, and three of the four had a FG% of 46%. The guard with 15 JR shot 38% from the field.

Unless the NBBA had an OD deficit I'm unaware of, it's very possible to build a competent outside team in a top division without spending an exorbitant amount on salary.

Then again, I don't know many teams that could match my OD that season (55952654), so perhaps the solution is to fight fire with fire. If the complaints about 2-3 are any indication, OD is just as important against inside offenses as it is against outside oriented teams.

I'm aware of your team's success and you definitely seem to be the exception to the rule. As I'm sure you're aware, there aren't very many other teams on the BB level that are having very much success with either 3 point shooter or outside based offenses.

Part of what you're sharing does seem to support the theory that high JR is not the solution to making a high percentage of 3's.

Your OD was so bad in that game, that lucky fans scored more than half of the opposing points :D

Part of what you're sharing does seem to support the theory that high JR is not the solution to making a high percentage of 3's.

It does, and given the cost/value of JR I do think the salary formula needs to be adjusted.

But, there's nothing I see that indicates that an outside team can't have success at the top levels of the game with the GE and salary formula intact, it's just that few have the inclination or resources to do so, and the current pool of players doesn't support it. It's easier to get a guard with 16 IS than a big with 16 SB.

That said, my outside rotation last year, with a trio of well-rounded 7/19/19/19 bigs would still cost less than Dionysus' team. With a trio of bigs that had 16, 10, and 9 ID, I still made it to the knockout round of B3, losing to Dionysus by 22. His closest win was the championship game, by a margin of 12.

Well, i can tell you for a fact that my center has almost SB as high as his IS, and it isn't helping one bit ! Go figure !

I have to disagree. My player Sutherland has SB 17 and he dominates his opponents. I checked the league games and his defensive numbers:
137 actions against him
- 104 were successfully stopped by Sutherland
- 48 from this 104 were Shot blocks
- 33 were failures
- out of this 33 there were only 9 shooting fouls.

to sum up:
he stopped almost 76% of all actions against him (so opponent bigs have a FG% of 24% if Sutherland defends them). his SB % is at 35% (48 SB out of 137). and his shooting foul % is at 6.5%.

My german trainee Haek isn't that far yet. But his OD+ID+SB is at 37 atm. Still increasing. His numbers are 72% successful stopped (79 out of 110); 26 blocks and only 4 shooting fouls. and he's playing against 40k+ salary big guys with his 7k salary.

it takes time to train the right guys. but it's already possible to stop LI teams.

small update after 16 games.

Sutherland:
194 actions against him
- 147 were successful stopped
- 70 from this 147 were blocks
- 50 were failures
- 12 of this 50 were shooting fouls

stopped almost 76% (same like last time). SB% at 36% (1% more than last time). shppting foul % at 6.19%
so almost the same percentages.

Haek:
133 actions ageinst him
- 98 were succesful stopped
- 33 out of 98 were blocks
- 35 failures
- 6 from 35 were shooting fouls

stopped almost 74% (+2%). SB% at 24.8% and shooting foul % at 4.5%.

another point about Haek: he finished 8 of 16 games with a Def% of 100%. His opponents scored only when they had no defender or someone else defended them.

Good work as always, Nachtmahr.

You've definitely proven that SB is totally worthless. It's so worthless you're even being ignored ;)

Last edited by LA-Karangula at 8/18/2013 9:02:18 AM

I'd like for you to tell us ,what yours guards inside defense numbers are if that ok ,or was in those times. It's not really not important the od numbers of these guard but the inside defense. This would give an idea of why the sb was very high..

I think the only way a outside team wins, is to make it a hellish back& forth shoot out with a LI team. Which mean a few point win in reality. A lot want get rid of game shape but its the is only factor a lot have and the"win juice" for teams like my self half vs LI. Because you might not have the skill to compete but you can keep it close and sneak out a win.

I wouldn't not be upset if the game got rid LI or LP.. because one of them has to go to honest. No point in changing all these salaries and etc . I think Low post is about the same as LI. If these guys want the big men to shoot more why not play low post.? Im not 100% sure but is LI is for guard to drive and score , the big man to just dominate and score at will with no immunity... I don't see how its any different from low post beyond being a faster set up tactic in play.

Its already been said having jr/jr 9/10 is that same as anything higher. A lot got these Li player with max skills inside then guards with driving 15+ IS 12+, this pretty much kill the outside game, because its a no brainer they are have guards with OD to the max aswell.. How do you expect to stop that. I would rather them play low post versus me than play LI all the time..

Atleast I'd know my big are trash and need to trained better or replaced and not the whole team I pay for . LOL :P..

Last edited by Mr. Glass at 8/19/2013 11:53:39 AM

Then again, I don't know many teams that could match my OD that season (55952654), so perhaps the solution is to fight fire with fire. If the complaints about 2-3 are any indication, OD is just as important against inside offenses as it is against outside oriented teams.

Or perhaps even more so. Presented for review: (59082488)